Feature #29836

Increase reloading delays for Rockets and Missiles Launchers

Added by cyrilator over 3 years ago. Updated over 2 years ago.

Status:In progress Start date:03/28/2012
Priority:Normal Due date:
Assignee:- % Done:

90%

Category:Animations
Target version:Arma 3
Component: Affected Version:
Close Reason:

Description

Currently, ingame, The reloading delay for these following missiles and rockets launchers is 4 seconds, it correspond to a rate of fire of 15 rounds per minute, which is unrealistic.

According to sources on internet these weapons when handled by a single soldier have these following rate of fire (rpm)

RPG29 1 rds/min (60 seconds to reload)

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=487

RPG7 6 rds/min (10 seconds to reload)

http://www.deagel.com/Rocket-and-Missile-Launchers/RPG-7_a002261001.aspx

SMAW 2 rds/min ( at least 30 seconds to reload)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhcytf0gRx4&feature=related

MAAWS (Carl Gustav) 5-6 rds/min (10-12 seconds to reload)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_recoilless_rifle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Aglp5iyis (8 seconds with two men)


Metis and M47 Dragon are expendable launchers, exactly like the Javelin.

Once the missile have been fired the targeting system is reused on another ready to fire tube. A single soldier only carry one missile + the bipod/tripod + sighting system.

the user doesn't carry extra ammos (due to volume and weight), this task is done by dedicated teammates.

Metis : 3/4 RPM (15/20 seconds to reload)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K115-2_Metis-M

M47 Dragon : 3/4 RPM (15/20 seconds to reload)
(estimation no sources.)

M47 Dragon manual user:

http://www.scribd.com/1Anonymouspatriotusa/d/12887494-Army-M47-Dragon-Med-Antitank-Weapon

Associated revisions

Revision 20de9e5b
Added by rocko about 3 years ago

~CHANGED: Disposable AT weapons are fire-ready instantly, refs #29836

History

Updated by cyrilator over 3 years ago

SMAW : 2rds/min (30 seconds to reload)

Updated by rocko over 3 years ago

  • Close Reason set to BIS / Engine problem

cyrilator wrote:

"INTERNET"

SMAW 1 rds/min (60 seconds to reload)
http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=119

Please see: Edit
For SMAW in your initial report it says 12 seconds. In your reply you change to 60 seconds. Without checking the provided link this is misleading. Please edit the tickets accordingly.

Updated by rocko over 3 years ago

  • Status changed from New to In progress
  • Target version set to 1.14
  • % Done changed from 0 to 30
  • Close Reason deleted (BIS / Engine problem)

Seems I can allow different animations per each weapon ...

So far I just do it for launchers. Sadly the only thing that will change is the animation speed. So with a "long reload time" the animation will play very slow.
But at least the possibility is there to have different reloading animations per weapon.

... Just the animations are missing ...

Updated by cyrilator over 3 years ago

rocko wrote:

cyrilator wrote:

"INTERNET"

SMAW 1 rds/min (60 seconds to reload)
http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=119

Please see: Edit
For SMAW in your initial report it says 12 seconds. In your reply you change to 60 seconds. Without checking the provided link this is misleading. Please edit the tickets accordingly.

Updated.

Updated by Huggy over 3 years ago

Your link

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=119

is referring to the SMAW-D M141 BDM which is NOT existing in this mod.
It is a AT-4 type disposable weapon with a SMAW warhead.

Not comparable to the simulated system, therefor times are irrelevant

Other than that i like the approach in this ticket

Updated by cyrilator over 3 years ago

you right, SMAW-D is single use, this is why it say 1 rds/min.

concerning the USMC SMAW launcher it should be close to the MAAWS, in term of reloading time.

Updated by ScarecrowisNOTamused. over 3 years ago

sigh Cyr, your ideas are actually frustrating to casual players, Anti tank weapons do not have a set firing rate, same as in combat vs in training, in training you're checkings safetys, ammo dates, while in combat your primary concerns are getting your round on target and as fast as you possably can to eleiminate the threat, there is no set loading times, continuing with such the dragon, SMAW, metis, Javlin and such are all tube or cartrage based, tube off, tube on, its designed to be fast and hassle free, just because you find a problem with it in PvP where everyone carries a RPG and a SVD or your hardcore milsim friends need to have everything accurate to online sources.

Updated by Huggy over 3 years ago

I don´t see any disadvantage if this becomes a little more realistic.

I am not playing PvP at all but since those changes would also effect AI in the same way it should be a good thing.

It actually would encourage players to make sure their first round is on target.

It is a good approach out of my perspective and i don´t see any negative effects on players

Updated by cyrilator over 3 years ago

ScarecrowisNOTamused. wrote:

sigh Cyr, your ideas are actually frustrating to casual players, Anti tank weapons do not have a set firing rate, same as in combat vs in training, in training you're checkings safetys, ammo dates, while in combat your primary concerns are getting your round on target and as fast as you possably can to eleiminate the threat, there is no set loading times, continuing with such the dragon, SMAW, metis, Javlin and such are all tube or cartrage based, tube off, tube on, its designed to be fast and hassle free, just because you find a problem with it in PvP where everyone carries a RPG and a SVD or your hardcore milsim friends need to have everything accurate to online sources.

it's not only about PVP game, this is also true against AI.

the fact to reload MAAWS, SMAW, Metis, or M47 Dragon in just 3/4 seconds is completely fancy. the time required to reload a complex weapons like Missile or Rocket launchers is part of strategy timing : (arm your launcher, shot, get cover to rearm...etc)

don't forget certain missile launchers are not reusable, infantryman need another tube launcher, and never carry himself 2 or 3 extra missile tubes.

What is sure is that Reloadable launcher takes longer than 4 seconds, above all if the weapon is managed by a single user.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Aglp5iyis

this is the delay required to reload MAAWS with TWO infantrymen : 7/8 seconds when operated with dedicated loader.

Surely longer if the shooter would have to manage it alone: 12 seconds would seems realistic.

In real combat situation, Stress or Panic wouldn't help the shooter to reload faster.

Updated by VyMajoris over 3 years ago

I would like to add that both SMAW and MAAWS breach loaded ATs, this means that the average reload time shown on that link were obtained by RELOADING BUDDIES.

If you are going to reload yourself a breach load AT, you would take about 30 seconds or more, since you would need to rest the AT somewhere, reach the spare rockets, open the breach, put the rocket inside, close the breach and put the AT back on your shoulder. Each step would take around 7 seconds.

That being said, I'll make a ticket to add buddy reloading to ATs and GPMGs.

Updated by cyrilator over 3 years ago

  • Description updated (diff)

Updated by cyrilator over 3 years ago

  • Description updated (diff)

Updated by cyrilator over 3 years ago

  • Description updated (diff)

Updated by kOepi over 3 years ago

source: Field Manual eastern forces (1991):

RPG 7 takes a two man team AND two men to reload the weapon within 14 seconds.

Updated by ScarecrowisNOTamused. over 3 years ago

kOepi wrote:

source: Field Manual eastern forces (1991):

RPG 7 takes a two man team AND two men to reload the weapon within 14 seconds.

Link to the manual?

Thats probably in referance to the people carrying extra ammunition or if a second launcher is carried, they could easily be operated by a single user.

Updated by Huggy over 3 years ago

Sadly ACE is still not offering a buddy reload system, therefor we can´t benefit from these values.

I still agree on increasing the reload time and these values help to determine realistic values for single person reload.

Updated by rocko over 3 years ago

Huggy wrote:

Sadly ACE is still not offering a buddy reload system, therefor we can´t benefit from these values.

Want to help developing it? :)

Updated by Sickboy over 3 years ago

rocko wrote:

Huggy wrote:

Sadly ACE is still not offering a buddy reload system, therefor we can´t benefit from these values.

Want to help developing it? :)

I think we have the answer in all the other instances where we asked that very same question ;-P

Updated by rocko over 3 years ago

Hm, come one guys, develop a buddy reloading system for AT weapons for us. I'll be available for help if needed.

First one to commit something gets a price to choose from.

- An empty beer bottle of Xeno
- Or a picture (jpg) of a handsigned dev draft from me for something ACE related

Updated by Huggy over 3 years ago

rocko wrote:

Huggy wrote:

Sadly ACE is still not offering a buddy reload system, therefor we can´t benefit from these values.

Want to help developing it? :)

Before declaring my total incompetence and stupidity again, i can atleast name a already working solution which is working with A.C.E. already!!
"Wissen ist wissen wo es steht, oder so!!" :o)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8hugsCrDIE (Kuckst du hier)
(http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?132803-DDAM-full-release full Mod download or on SixUpdater)
The airburst functionality is also included, would solve another ticket.....

Since Sickboy had his hands already partly on it (uploaded to sixupdater network) he might be the best to ask for permission.

Although the beer bottle sounds teasing and a hand-signed dev draft would bring me near a heart stroke; i will be fine with a copy of Arma 3 Alpha build (>just joking<)

Updated by rocko over 3 years ago

Huggy wrote:

... i will be fine with a copy of Arma 3 Alpha build (>just joking<)

Stell Dich hinten an :D

Updated by Huggy over 3 years ago

rocko wrote:

Huggy wrote:

... i will be fine with a copy of Arma 3 Alpha build (>just joking<)

Stell Dich hinten an :D

Hoffe die Schlange ist nicht zu lang :op

Updated by Huggy over 3 years ago

What´s the status here, permission granted??????

Updated by rocko about 3 years ago

  • % Done changed from 30 to 90

Partially worked on but not yet satisfying.
All DISPOSABLE launchers (AT4, RPG-18, M72, etc.) are now instantly ready to fire. Their reload animation is ~1 second or so now and can be reloaded/made fire ready while moving.

The other launcher weapons still use the Vanilla "4-second-reloading-no-matter-what-and-how-fucking-huge-and-complex-my-launcher-is" reloading style.

Other than that, we probably need CUSTOM animations for each other AT weapon (the downside is, you will be able to reload a Javelin or Metis while moving).

Updated by MagicStuffUser about 3 years ago

Rocko what animations you need?
for weapons (in model.cfg) or rtm anims for soldier skeleton?

Updated by rocko about 3 years ago

MagicStuffUser wrote:

Rocko what animations you need?
for weapons (in model.cfg) or rtm anims for soldier skeleton?

RTM

Updated by cyrilator about 3 years ago

rocko wrote:

All DISPOSABLE launchers (AT4, RPG-18, M72, etc.) are now instantly ready to fire. Their reload animation is ~1 second or so now and can be reloaded/made fire ready while moving.

If I remember M72 and RPG18 have two positions : closed and opened. the user need to arm the launcher by extending the inner tube backward, which raise the integrated sighting system and cock the weapon.

not sure if a ~1 second delay is really feasible IRL.

the current delay for these disposable launchers (4 secs) seems technically more probable.

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/grenade/gl12/m72law-2.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/grenade/gl38/rpg18-1.jpg

Concerning AT4, the firing operation is faster : the gunner just removes the safety pin located at the rear of the tube, which unblocks the firing rod (1-2 seconds).


the increased delay feature mostly concerns reloadable launchers. (rpg-7, 29, smaw, maaws)

Concerning M47 Dragon and Metis they would need the same ACE system as for the Javelin (a unique tube transportable into the launcher inventory slot + CLU).

IRL there is no possibility to reload these tubes by putting a new missile inside. These tubes are made for single use and expendable after use.

IRL a soldier either wear a Missile tube + CLU, OR two Missile tubes without CLU (CLU at least as Heavy and Bulky as the missile Tube itself). And I don't even take into account the tripod (even if not present ingame) weight and volume which is nearly always used to shot these missiles.

http://www.rusarmy.com/wallpapers/strelo2/gmk_metis-m/gmk_metis-m_1152%20001.jpg
http://warfare.ru/0702ey70/update/jan2005/2/met.jpg

Updated by MagicStuffUser about 3 years ago

rocko wrote:

MagicStuffUser wrote:

Rocko what animations you need?
for weapons (in model.cfg) or rtm anims for soldier skeleton?

RTM

No problem! what the animations you need?
Show me videos or give names with/for required reloading anims! :)

Updated by Inkompetent about 3 years ago

The whole reason for the disposable AT launchers having to be reloaded when being selected is to simulate cocking the launcher, removing the (if any) safeties, and preparing the sights (be it flip-up sights or removing the lid from optical ones).

If the launcher is put on back it will be de-cocked, safeties applied if needed, and sights folded back or re-covered.

Unless the launchers get different preparation-states (and consequences thereof) I would argue that keeping the ordinary preparation-time for a launcher seems reasonable, since even the vanilla 4 seconds for preparing a launcher is pretty darn fast already. 1 second is completely inhumane, and circumvents the design intention of the reload.

Updated by rocko almost 3 years ago

  • Category set to Animations

Updated by rocko almost 3 years ago

  • Target version changed from 1.14 to Arma 3

Updated by cyrilator over 2 years ago

Currently the reloading delays are different either if your are reloading while laying down or if your are crouching/standing up. which is a bit weird.

if technically possible, can we use the delay used when reloading laying down for other stances. it would be more realistic and match a bit more with the real reloading delay initially required.

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