Bug #29158

Me-262 weak cannon with no splash damage.

Added by magnus28 over 3 years ago. Updated 12 months ago.

Status:New Start date:03/05/2012
Priority:Trivial Due date:
Assignee:- % Done:

0%

Category:-
Target version:2.7
Close Reason: I am using some Mods:No
Affected Version:2.6 I am using:
Graphics card driver version: Reproducible for you:No
Affected ArmA II version: BIForumURL (Use new instead):
Reproduced by another DH user:No Single / Multi Player?:

Description

this gun currently is < .50 cal in game. has no splash damage when engaging ground targets. mk108 cannon most commonly equipped with Minengeschoß (mine shell) charge

Ammunition for 3cm cannons

In 3 cm caliber different M-Geschoß designs were available: the original blunt-nosed Ausf.A had a 85g filling of nitropenta (PETN), which was reduced to 72g in the more streamlined Ausf.C shell (the "missing" B was a practice shell). In comparison, the PGU-13/B HEI round for the GAU-8/A Avenger gun of the A-10 Warthog contains only a 58g explosive filler, while 30mm OFZ shell of Russian GSh-301 and GSh-30-6 cannons has a 48.5g filler.

also mk108 cannon does not shoot appears to only have 1 gun firing in game, just with faster bullet stream to simulate 4 guns.

History

Updated by PacUK over 3 years ago

  • Priority changed from Normal to Trivial
  • Target version set to Future
  • Affected Version set to 2.6

ArmA2 did not (and may not) support multi-barrell weapons like these planes used so for the most part scripts were used or workarounds. This unit as with other planes will be overhauled in a future patch.

Updated by Hannibal78 over 3 years ago

50% ap ammo and 50% he ammo (with splash damaged) so that changing magazines is not necessary
of course only if it possible

Updated by magnus28 over 3 years ago

why use AP ammo at all?

the mk108 was designed primarily as a bomber destroyer, with a secondary role to support medium/heavy fighters. The German intelligence noted that the 20mm mg 151/20 was not effective in bringing down b-17's and b-24s. they designed a cannon to bring down a bomber in an average of just 4 hits. No airplane in WWII was heavily armoured, so the germans used high explosive "mine-shell" ammo to wreck apart the structure of the airplane. AP was NOT used in this gun whatsoever! You could put 100 large diameter holes in a B17 and it can still fly, but they counted on a bunch of explosions to destroy the structure.

This was never intended to shoot tanks. That's why Rheinmetall designed the flak18/37 37mm cannon for.
Please don't confuse people and ask for an AP variant of the mk108, cause it didn't exist.

Updated by HomerJohnston over 3 years ago

  • Target version changed from Future to 2.7

Updated by ScarecrowisNOTamused. over 3 years ago

2.7? isn't that a little far away? (im thinking the time between 2.5-2.6) couldn't you just change the config to use the default 30mm rounds from the OA apache or the A-10? and just play around with the fire rate?

Updated by magnus28 over 3 years ago

I second this. But you have to understand that the mk108 cannon used a much more powerful explosive filler than was used on the a10.

_Ammunition
The cannon used specially-developed 30×90RB mm ammunition—30 mm calibre, 90 mm case length, rebated/reduced rim. Unlike most other weapon rounds, which used traditional brass for the case, the MK 108's ammunition used steel cases. Several types of ammunition were developed, including practice, armor-piercing, high-explosive and incendiary. In operation, however, two major ammunition types were used: Minengeschoß ("mine-shell") and high-explosive incendiary. The Minengeschoß was made by drawn steel (the same way brass cartridges are made) instead of being forged and machined as was the usual practice for cannon shells. This resulted in a shell with a thin but strong wall, which hence had a much larger cavity in which to pack a much larger explosive or incendiary charge than was otherwise possible.

In 3 cm caliber different M-Geschoß designs were available: the original blunt-nosed Ausf.A had a 85g filling of nitropenta (PETN), which was reduced to 72g in the more streamlined Ausf.C shell (the "missing" B was a practice shell). In comparison, the PGU-13/B HEI round for the GAU-8/A Avenger gun of the A-10 Warthog contains only a 58g explosive filler, while 30mm OFZ shell of Russian GSh-301 and GSh-30-6 cannons has a 48.5g filler._

so A10 round only has 58g explosive filler, while mk 108 mine shell had 72g.

A10 HE round would suffice for now, just would have to up the damage a bit, and lower the fire rate. Homerm is this a doable temporary solution for now until 2.7 comes out?

Updated by Hannibal78 over 3 years ago

don't forget does the kinetic energy from the a10 main gun is extremely higher than of the mk 108
if had the mk108 the same damage output as the a10 gun it would be really strange
surely the mk 108 should be the most powerful airplane gun

i think the best compromise would be a weaker zsu gun
but then should fires the 4x mk108 really from all barrels

original:

class B_23mm_HE: B_23mm_AA {
hit = 42;
indirectHit = 15;
indirectHitRange = 0.3;
};

suggestion:

class B_23mm_HE: B_23mm_AA {
hit = 25;
indirectHit = 15;
indirectHitRange = 0.3;
};

Updated by magnus28 over 3 years ago

NO NO NO NO.

Hannibal, the A10's Avenger cannon has a much higher muzzle velocity, however kinetic energy is NOT a factor when comparing HEI rounds.
Just like the pzgr 39 was better at penetrating armour at ranges <1000m the Spzgr was better at penetration armour at >1000m. The ability to defeat armour while using chemical energy relies solely on the amount of explosive power of the round. The 2 types of ammunition used for the mk108 were mineshell and hei - both which are high explosive rounds packed with large amounts of explosive filler.

What you are suggesting is that the 30mm round that contained more explosive power than the 30mm round used today on the avenger, be nerfed to less than a 23mm?
doesn't make sense! Also due to the engine capabilities of Arma 2, it is not possible to script all 4 guns to shoot at once.

Please guys, Scarecrow made a plausible temporary solution for this, until 2.7
The mk108 should use default a10 ammunition, just with slower rate of fire, but not to much slower! After all it was firing 4 barrel at once. It had a rate of fire of 650 rounds/min, so due to the fact that multi-barrel weapons can not happen in Arma 2, 4*650 =2600 rpm. Current A-10 avenger rof has been set to 3900 rpm.

hopefully this can get fixed sooner than 2.7!!

Updated by Hannibal78 over 3 years ago

magnus28 wrote:
it is not possible to script all 4 guns to shoot at once.
so due to the fact that multi-barrel weapons can not happen in Arma 2

sorry but that is not true you can make all 4 guns/barrels to work via script (not different weapons engine limitation)
if you had your plane two weapons then you're right

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=5928&highlight=ZSU

Updated by magnus28 over 2 years ago

can we get a confirmation from dev's on intent is for this cannon in 2.7?

splash damage?

4 30mm cannons firing at once with 72g of high explosive filler should wreck anything...
I know it is overpowered, but after all it is in game, and should be accurate to RL counterpart

Updated by magnus28 12 months ago

so it has been confirmed that with script configs, you can indeed make 4 barrels fire at once (see Sheilka gun fix mod).

So for 2.7 I was wondering if the same script changes can be implemented to the 262. Make 4 barrels fire at once, and increase splash damage to reflect the 72g explosive filler..

Please reopen and assign.

cheers!

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