Feature #2251

Improve radar and friend-foe-identification (IFF) simulation

Added by Alienfreak almost 6 years ago. Updated about 2 years ago.

Status:Assigned Start date:06/24/2009
Priority:Normal Due date:
Assignee:- % Done:

0%

Category:Gameplay
Target version:-
Affected ArmA II version:Please select... First affected ArmA II version:
Reproduced by another DH user:No Single / Multi Player?:
I am using some Mods:No BIForumURL:
I am using: NGUrl:
Reproducible for you:No WIKIurl:
Related to content of DLC:

Description

Problems
BIS "radar" is
  • Omnidirectional: It knows of any contacts in every direction; jets for example need to turn if they want to scan 360°
  • Passive: any contact that is on the 'radar', doesn't know about it; thus also no means of simulating passive/semi-active missiles (without a custom simulation)
  • Infrared: the "radar" isn't a radar at all, but more something like the IRST on the MiG-29 or Eurofighter; as soon as the engines are off, the target is a white box, and can't be locked by TAB
    friendly/hostile: it can discriminate friendlies/hostiles/neutrals; but that discrimination depends on the engines running!
  • Viewdistance dependence: actual radar is not dependent on 'view distance' (well, if there's really really bad weather)
  • Anti-air and surface radar at the same time

BIS radar is not only bad from a realism perspective, but also from a gaming perspective.

Another description:
  • Has friend/foe detection
  • Can partly look behind hills
  • Can track endless targets at full 360 degree
  • Must have intelligent software that can detect from the shape of an object, if it is civilian or not and if a crew is onboard or not
  • It can detect destroyed vehicles, they disappear from screen
Suggestions
  • Make it configurable if a vehicle radar can pick up
    • none
    • air only targets
    • ground only targets
    • or both air and ground targets
  • Do not show small vehicles on the radar at all (motorbikes, bicycles) (irTarget=0)
  • Show only white radar signature for civilian/small vehicles (cars, trucks)
  • Add hasRadar config value to each vehicle (0 never, 1 only in cadet mode mode, 2 always) (unitInfoType would remain to define which vehicle position has access to the radar)
  • Add radarAngle that defines the scanning angle (360°, 180°, less, etc)
Enhance friend-foe-identification (IFF) simulation
  • Show white only radar signature for all irTargets by default
  • TAB lock to work also on white radar targets
  • Only vehicles with the new config value hasSystemIFF can detect friends/foes as green/red (0 off, 1 only in cadet mode, 2 always) - related #16719
  • In addition the new config value iffType if enemies can be picked up as red radar target
    • none
    • air only targets
    • ground only targets
    • or both air and ground targets
  • Bonus: Turn white into red radar targets only when it is clearly hostile (engaging the player of friendly units) (maybe meaningful to link with knowsAbout value)
  • Enhanced irTarget: 2 means veteran only and set to all/most buildings, so that it will be much harder to pick up irTargets near buildings/cities

Related issues

related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Feature #16719: Add option to disable friend-foe radar signature (difficu... Assigned 01/15/2011
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Feature #17965: Add difficulty option to disable radar of vehicles (that ... Assigned 03/01/2011
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Feature #14094: Add option to restrict radar locking (TAB target cycling)... Assigned 09/30/2010
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #37779: Remove radar infos for non-radar equiped Vehicles and Air... Assigned 07/20/2012
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Feature #14454: Simulate laser guidance by helicopter weapons (like Hellf... Assigned 10/16/2010
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #37331: Radar targets and locking should to be limited by object ... Assigned 07/17/2012
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #46368: irScanGround = 0/false does not limit radar/target identi... Assigned 09/09/2012
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #43765: Static weapon (TOW, MK19, M2, ASG-30) are visible on radars Assigned 08/29/2012
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #28290: BMP-2 facing away turns its turret in 2 seconds and fires... Feedback

History

Updated by kju almost 6 years ago

  • Tracker changed from Bug to Feature

Updated by Alienfreak almost 6 years ago

I am not very sure that the radar of some aircrafts (whichs radar is capable of tracking ground targets) are automatically identifying targets. I think you rather use them like IR ground target sensors.

The problem with the current radar on airborne vehicles is that you can lock on targets you didnt even discover yet. With airtargets this is very much possible, of course. But Im unaware of any airborne vehicle that can automatically acquire all possible targets and let you cycle through them.
This would very much kill the use of any AA Tank :)

Updated by Fireball over 5 years ago

  • Due date set to 09/24/2009
  • Status changed from New to Feedback
  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.02.58064 to 1.04.59026

I think you need to play a realistic modern fighter/bomber simulation again. Even Falcon 4.0 which is, I think, even older than OFP CWC showed very well, that there are ground radars which can pick up units up to 40 miles in front of the plane and it can do Friend-or-Foe recognition, based on the type of radar emission (e.g. for AAA or SAM units) or an Apache Longbow (and other CAS units) does do FF recognition either by (coded) emitters of friendly units or by the shape of unit acquired by the ground radar (but not so far ahead, but up 5-10 miles is possible).

But certainly all radars let you acquire as well friendly as enemy units, unlike now in A2.

If you agree, I'd like to make this a feature request to

1.) separate air radar from ground radar
2.) to make all targets selectable, even friendly ones

What it already does is, only to display an enemy as an enemy when it's identifed correctly (not saying that this ID process is flawless, but that's another story).

Updated by Fireball over 5 years ago

Eh, thinking back a bit longer, I think I've mixed up a few things (it's been a while):

- FF coded emitters are used by airplanes only
- shape recognition is done by board optics (special cameras) I think up to approx. 2 miles ahead only

Updated by zGuba over 5 years ago

  • Due date changed from 09/24/2009 to 10/24/2009
  • Category set to Gameplay
  • Status changed from Feedback to Assigned

Updated by Fireball over 5 years ago

  • Due date deleted (10/24/2009)
  • Reproduced by another DH user set to No
  • CPU set to Please specify!

Updated by kju almost 5 years ago

  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.04.59026 to Please select...
  • Audio card set to Please specify!
  • Size of OS swap file set to Please specify!

Updated by kotov over 2 years ago

  • I am using some Mods set to No
  • Reproducible for you set to No

These days I found that radar in arma2 works very similar to IR view system.The only difference that it also have 360 view,friend or foe recognition,air to ground warnings, approx distant to object and some other functions.As access to flir view and IR cameras very cheap these days and can be carry even in hands there nothing unusual that they come with most vehicles in game.

To comply with game play and real system,will be useful switch off some functions or make them switchable.

Radar itself is not an BIG issue,main problem is possibility to hit enemy target, without any game logic.

For normal difficulty settings Radar in game should work like this:

Within current object drawing distance(set by server):

Ground Vehicles (APC/tanks) should able to see

a.ground targets on radar (grey marks only ) within maximum 30-60 degree(15-30 +/- of main gun/cross hair)(simulation of IR view)
b.Laser/IR lighting warning in red same in game right now(OA version 1.62)(simulating emission detector)
c. AA vehicles should able to see enemy air units in red,independently of their engine status (at present time looks like players in mp switching off engine while attacking for moment and dropping lock).(Method of detection of targets using radio waves,friend or foe recognition currently installed in every air vehicle)

Air units should be able to see on their radar:

a.ground targets on radar (grey marks only ) within maximum 30-60 degree(15-30 +/- of main gun/cross hair).(simulation of IR view)
b.Laser/IR lighting warning in red same in game right now.(simulation of detector of emission)
c.AA and radar type enemy ground units in red.(Can be detected using different methods including radio waves)
d.All enemy air units.(as any flying abject can be detected using different methods including radio waves )

TAB to lock (detect+friend/foe recognition+lock on target) should only works ONLY To lock within current object drawing distance on server and able to lock targets:

a.Radar type targets by using air vehicles (any type of enemy aircraft-air to air missile, air to ground missile for ground targets as tunguska,shilka,m6,avenger,active radars etc) (locked with radar)
b.Against targets which locked your vehicle same time.(ground to ground units) (locked with radar)
c.Laser pointed by other friendly unit.(simulation of communication between different friendly units)
d.targets which locked by other friendly unit.(simulation of communication between different friendly units)

Green marks on radar of tanks and APC of friendly ground units looks logically ok as well as green marks of friendly air units on AA radars.
So another words enemy helicopter should be never shown on friendly tank radar unless it is AA ground unit with active AA radar and opposite.Enemy tank should be never shown on friendly radar air unit unless it is AA active target as for example tunguska or m6 or pointed with laser or locked by other friendly unit.

Updated by kju over 2 years ago

  • Operating system deleted (Win7 64 bit)
  • Graphics card deleted (GTX 295)
  • Graphics card driver version deleted (186.18)
  • CPU deleted (Please specify!)
  • Audio card deleted (Please specify!)
  • Size of OS swap file deleted (Please specify!)

Updated by kju over 2 years ago

  • Subject changed from Aircraft Radar still picks up ground targets to Improve radar simulation
  • Description updated (diff)

Updated by kju over 2 years ago

  • Description updated (diff)

Updated by kju over 2 years ago

  • Subject changed from Improve radar simulation to Improve radar and friend-foe-identification (IFF) simulation
  • Description updated (diff)

Updated by kju over 2 years ago

  • Description updated (diff)

Updated by kju over 2 years ago

  • Description updated (diff)

Updated by kju over 2 years ago

  • Description updated (diff)

Updated by kju over 2 years ago

  • Description updated (diff)

Updated by kju over 2 years ago

  • Description updated (diff)

Updated by kju over 2 years ago

Comment from BIF (Beagle?):
Unfortunatly the "unknown" targets in ArmA are pure cosmetical, because when you can lock a unknown target you know its enemy even though it's yellow on the radar. So you are always safe...you can't do FF with Tab lock. Ands that's why you can "speed tab away"...simply because no target recognition is needed, its all magically done. RL the radar need quite a time to process the contact to give it a category and altering the shape by adding stuff outside (often done in armoured branch) does not make it easier for the radar to find the right radar echo profile. And this systems works the same for AH-1Z, Su-25 and A-10 which have no radar at all.

Updated by Vipera about 2 years ago

Automatic recognition on tank radar is what AI crew member says to you now. When you see a red dot on your tank radar it means that your AI crew member has spotted a target, he recognized that this is an enemy and tells you where and how far target is. What is a problem with this? And when you want to tell your AI gunner "aim that closest target" you hit Tab and highlight that target. I think this is a good way to communicate with AI crew members until they will be able to recognize your speech in real time.
When we play on PvP server only, without AI crew than we definitely do not need Tab feature. In this case your human crew member should do his job on his own without magic radar but we still need it with AI crew.
If we want to remove the Tab feature completely then can we instead of red dots on radar for tanks use something similar as AA incoming missile warning for planes? If AI crew spotted a target radar shows approximate direction to the target by red sector on radar circle.

Updated by Fireball about 2 years ago

Yes, well it depends on how you regard the Radar, if only you look at it as a communications method between commander and AI, then there should probably not be a visual representation, and it's not how it works right now - currently it even blinks a sector if you're targeted by an enemy unit, like a TWS and within a certain range all enemy and friendly units are automagically marked, spotted or not - the engine merely determines if they are perceivable by the unit with the Radar system or not.

As kju said, also "unknown" objects are only targettable if they're enemy and neutral targets (grey/white) are not targettable at all and specially not if they're friendly.

All this makes your comment almost off-topic; I agree that there needs to be an efficient way to communicate with AI, as it is now, but this got nothing to do with how Radar works right now; you can test this: if you put yourself as player in an empty tank, without auxiliary AI to help, rear to a group of enemy tanks with a waypoint (maybe combat mode BLUE) - they will be marked red the very moment they turn on engines - no AI there for you to recognize them.

Updated by Vipera about 2 years ago

I agree, Fireball. If player is only one inside the tank then radar should be empty.

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