Bug #1915

AI warping - especially at distance.

Added by Fireball almost 6 years ago. Updated about 2 years ago.

Status:Closed Start date:06/08/2009
Priority:Normal Due date:
Assignee:- % Done:

40%

Category:Animations
Target version:1.60.87580
Affected ArmA II version:1.59.79384 First affected build:
Reproduced by another DH user:No First affected ArmA II version:
I am using some Mods:No Single / Multi Player?:
I am using:OA only BIForumURL:
Reproducible for you:No NGUrl:
Related to content of DLC: WIKIurl:

Description

Obs:
Enemy AI are warping brutally for a client (and sometimes even for the host)!
AI units walk or drive and suddenly they are 2 meters in front of their location or
behind again, i.e. they zap around like mad.

Exp:
AI should not warp if server FPS is fine. Not at close up or distance.
Not for hosted nor for DS.

kju's comment:

The community reported this already in the A1 CBT and had many votes.
We assume either OFPE brought in different default values for network
or some networking tweaking has gone very wrong. MinErrorToSend can
be used to less the problem.

MinErrorToSend = 0.005;
//Minimal error to send updates across network.
//Using a smaller value can make units observed by binoculars
//or sniper rifle to move smoother. Default: 0.01

SP example video just to understand what warping means.

BIF ref thread


I've been testing various multiplayer modes over the internet with a friend (ONE friend) who has a constant ping between 30 and 33ms. Note ONE, because this probably doesn't get any better when there are many people playing.

This needs rapid improvement for the next (two) patches, because like that it's not so playable.

My host system: Core i7 with HT, 3 GB RAM
My internet connection: VDSL2 with 20Mbit down and 1Mbit up
My friends connection: Cable with 15 Mbit down and 1.5Mbit up

CIT_1915.mp4 (7.2 MB) alef, 11/18/2009 23:34


Related issues

related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #2279: Latency problem with human players online Expired 06/25/2009
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #24015: Remote AI infantry at beaming back and forth while moving Closed 09/01/2011
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #24014: Remote AI ground vehicles at large distance are not updat... Closed 09/01/2011
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #24034: Remote objects in MP jump back when stopping Closed 09/01/2011
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #14191: Object synchronization in Multiplayer at > 1.5km not prec... Closed 10/05/2010 12/01/2011
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #3116: Character animation jerkiness after vehicle exit (some ve... Closed 07/27/2009
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #23555: Interpolation/Animation changes bugged in MP Closed 08/18/2011
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #4073: Animations lost at distance Duplicate 08/27/2009
duplicated by ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #6297: Arma2 1.04 MP massive warps/lags and asyncs Duplicate 11/27/2009

History

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

My friends' OS: Win 7 64bit, 6 GB RAM, Core i7 with HT, Nvidia 9800 GTX

Updated by TeRp almost 6 years ago

can't confirm this either.
we played with 5 players using a 10 mbit cable, everything worked fine.
There is however the old beaming when the ai is (very) far waay.

Updated by kju almost 6 years ago

This it not about client FPS.

Server FPS can cause units warping very badly.
Also A2 still has the bad xbox netcode optimization for AI units to jump at distance.

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

Generally speaking, my impression was that it is worse than it was in ArmA1 already.

As you mentioned, on far distances it's more difficult to hit or in other words, snipers have a really bad time, when the units are zapping around. But specially ArmA and ArmA2 have possiblities for very far view distances (> 4km) where it is imperative that this be fixed finally.

I must add nonetheless that also on closer distances the units tend to warp around badly at times too. Is this maybe connected with hard disk reloads of textures and the like? Because that's the only thing that I can imagine, what could slow down the multiplayer experience at times on my computer. I must add, the reload spasms aren't often but they do happen - this, IMO, shouldn't disrupt MP fun for only two players though!

Updated by kju almost 6 years ago

Please check #1686.

I think its the same issue you are talking about.

Updated by TeRp almost 6 years ago

Of course it is the same issue, what do you think are we talking about?

Updated by kju almost 6 years ago

  • Priority changed from Urgent to Normal

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

I just know the problem still exists for me and the one friend when we just tried to play the "Close Quarter Combat" MP mission, with me as a host, he shot onto enemy soldiers just to see that they probably weren't really there and he just shot into the empty place, but you still see them drawing blood, because the model is there for him, but not for the server.

Thus it's not only the warping, but it's also soldiers who are shown in a place, but they are not there in fact. Maybe a "trivial" hit boxes problem.

Updated by jukuhullui almost 6 years ago

Hi,
I can confirm this issue but only when units embark/disembark from e.g. choppers. (will try it with other vehicles asap)
Maybe it has something todo with the dust raised in the air?

Tried the same scenario with a chopper only flying above some units (no dust raised up) without embarking/disembarking and there was no lagging at all.

This behaviour occurs also in editor-preview mode!
Can someone other confirm this?

Updated by alef almost 6 years ago

  • Due date set to 10/03/2009
  • Status changed from New to Assigned

jukuhullui wrote:

Can someone other confirm this?

Could be the same as #2490 ?

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

Related but not the same.

I think this could be a meta bug for all the different MP performance issues. Just add all MP performance related bug IDs to the related section of this bug, in order to keep track easily and mark it in the title with [Tracking] or similar.

EDIT: Please also update the affected version to the latest 1.02 patch.

Updated by Sickboy almost 6 years ago

  • Maxmem parameter set to Not set

Topic at BIF: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?p=1352786#post1352786

Mostly annoying for Snipers and other 'higher' ranged stuff. Also not too nice to the eye. But otherwise not the biggest showstopper, though I do annoy myself to it :)

Updated by kju almost 6 years ago

  • Subject changed from Performance: MP performance is terrible to AI warping - especially at distance.

Updated header. More info about server value tweaking and example videos needed.

Updated by Typooni almost 6 years ago

This happens especially in Coop campaign. In latest 1.02 version. With decent FPS and connections.

Updated by fabrizioT almost 6 years ago

As kju stated, that MAY be server FPS related.

I Tried myself running MP on a server in my LAN.
As soon as the server reached 100% load the AI units on client warped slightly.

Updated by kju over 5 years ago

  • Due date changed from 10/03/2009 to 08/25/2009
  • Status changed from Assigned to Feedback

Can someone confirm this still a problem for 1.03. Thanks.

Updated by alef over 5 years ago

  • Due date changed from 08/25/2009 to 11/12/2009
  • Status changed from Feedback to Assigned
  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.01.57751 to 1.03.58627
Yes it is. MinErrorToSend = 0.005; but still AI vectors change their directions too slowly at distance.
  • Player FOV could be take into account to filter which AI vectors for which client to refresh faster
  • Infantry animations also seems delayed, or might be a consequence of the vectors refresh rate
  • An explanation of MinErrorToSend meaning or units would also be useful. All other basic.cfg have a unit (bytes, bps) but this not
  • in #monitor a parameter showing the mean "error not sent" would be useful for tuning

Updated by Armored_Sheep over 5 years ago

It is not bug, it is by design - animation simplification is the way how we optimise simulation and drawing of the large scene.

Updated by Fireball over 5 years ago

Armored_Sheep wrote:

It is not bug, it is by design - animation simplification is the way how we optimise simulation and drawing of the large scene.

Thanks for your honest reply, but I think the warping must be contained when a player looks zoomed in (rifle scope and maybe also binocs) at the AI in distance - else shooting across larger ranges (not to speak of sniping) becomes a real PITA.

Not sure if this is currently possible - but theoretically the client could request a "network focus" upon the FOV of the player.

Updated by Fireball over 5 years ago

  • Tracker changed from Bug to Feature

Updated by Dwarden over 5 years ago

  • Status changed from Assigned to In progress
  • Target version set to 1.05 BETA
  • % Done changed from 0 to 10

there are quite some limitations to be overcome before this can be fixed

the METS value controls updates around position of camera of client ...
it doesnt take in mind at all zoom levels ...
so more far object is the less updates happens ...

and now the problem the more precise (lower) this value is & the more objects is closer to the camera position of client
the more updates of distant objects ends in queue as closer objects get priority!

and because in A2 there is way more objects (e.g. animals, civilians, more friendly AI etc)
the worse things happen with lower METS values ...

yet there are several other problems which may be related to these issues server side
they are now being tracked and most likely will improve or fix issue(s) above mentioned

also full scale solution is not possible till A2:OA or next generation generation

Updated by Xeno over 5 years ago

Dwarden wrote:

also full scale solution is not possible till A2:OA or next generation generation

Well, well, well. So we have to buy OA to get rid of that old bug :(

Updated by Fireball over 5 years ago

  • Assignee set to Dwarden

Updated by Fireball over 5 years ago

  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.03.58627 to 1.04.59026
  • Reproduced by another DH user set to No

Updated by mr.g-c over 5 years ago

As a short update:
I have tried around for some hours and it is really that ONLY units which have disembarked from a vehicle before, appearing as beaming from distance. I hope this helps in tracking down this bug.
EDIT: I'm talking NOT about pure MP beaming/lagginess issue here, which this ticket is obviously about, but rather about those kind of beaming happening both in SP & MP with just disembarked people. I had a old ticket about it here: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/1686
But it was closed and put together with the other kind of beaming here in this ticket confused

Updated by Alex72 over 5 years ago

Agreed wíth above. Thats when it happens.

AI disembarking at some distance are very likely to warping (Single Play in my case).

Updated by kju over 5 years ago

Alex72 and mr.g-c we have a good report for your issue here: #3116.

Updated by kju over 5 years ago

  • Target version changed from 1.05 BETA to Upcoming version

Updated by kju over 5 years ago

  • Due date deleted (11/12/2009)

Updated by alef over 5 years ago

  • File CIT_1915.mp4 added
  • CPU changed from Please specify! to n/a

A video I made time ago (1.03) showing an MP session on the same machine and the performance monitor on the network loopback interface. You can see the visual effect for METS 0.01 and 0.001 through camera.sqs at max zoom, and the network cost in term of packets and traffic. You can ignore the lower left trace.

Updated by Laugen about 5 years ago

Dwarden wrote:

also full scale solution is not possible till A2:OA or next generation generation

Any new details on this? OA or next generation? :)

Updated by takbal almost 5 years ago

Probably a better solution is not to increase the number of updates, rather perform an interpolation on the client's side. The hard part is to calculate hits while the target is shown as interpolated; for this, the server has to do some calculations backward in time.

Updated by kju almost 5 years ago

  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.04.59026 to Please select...
  • Audio card set to Please specify!
  • Size of OS swap file set to Please specify!

Updated by kju almost 5 years ago

  • Due date set to 08/01/2010
  • Status changed from In progress to Feedback
  • Assignee deleted (Dwarden)
  • Target version deleted (Upcoming version)

Any improvement here for OA?

Updated by Floydii almost 5 years ago

No improvement in MP kju. Playing Domination on Takistan (where there is ALOT of long range shooting), and the warping at range is as bad as ever.

The warping and jumping of entities (human or AI) persists at range and is now further complicated by the fact that missile guidance is a client side thing.

Example: I was engaging a T72 with a Javelin missile in MP at about 1500m, the missile was about to strike, and then the tank jumped 15m to one side. This forced the missile to swerve violently in an attempt to hit the tank, which it failed to do.

So now hitting things at range with a rifle/tank cannon is improbably difficult AS WELL as guided weapons being 50/50 if the target is warping at range.

Interpolation would fix the guidance problem, but I simply don't know enough about MP code to say what would happen if the hit detection was resolved clientside.

It has been suggested before, and I think it is still a valid point: Use a higher update rate for entities within 5 degrees of the players line of sight out to about 5000m (I've never engaged anything visually in game beyond this range). Even if it takes a second or two for the higher updates to take effect, it will allow snipers/AT gunners/Gunship gunners/tank crew to aquire a target and engage it correctly at range.

Updated by Fireball almost 5 years ago

  • Due date changed from 08/01/2010 to 10/11/2010
  • Status changed from Feedback to Assigned
  • Affected ArmA II version changed from Please select... to 1.52.71816

Updated by kju almost 5 years ago

  • Assignee set to Dwarden

Disappointing to hear. Hopefully BI will put some attention on this in the near future.

Updated by rundll.exe over 4 years ago

I have the feeling that this issue actually became more severe in OA, but hat might be related to the new terrain: Its more open, so there are more long-range engagements. The latter really should be a reason for BIS to look into this, because even the focus in OA campagin is quite a lot on long distant engagements.

Keeping the fov of the player in mind while processing the units posistions shouldn't be that hard?

Updated by Fireball over 4 years ago

I must add that if probably everyone including the server has a good line (and the latter maybe proper tweaking), this issue doesn't really appear.

I've been playing the PvE version of Domination2 (OA) on the SUS server with about 10-12 other players, and I was sniping from the top of a hill down onto AI ~300-500m away, and everything was smooth.

What caught my attention, was the plugin from my G15 displaying a downstream usage of 175k/sec during gameplay (with no other downloads/games running)! We're still far from the reality, that every client can sustain this DL speed continuously, specially our East European and Caucasian friends and also the US people with higher latency (no offense meant to any of the aforementioned).

Ignorant on how it really works, my theory is, that if one of the players only begins to lag behind, the server will compensate by reducing the original stream by some percentage to everyone. The question raised then would be, why actually everyone is affected. Does the A2/OA server assume the server bandwidth is too low, since it cannot possibly know? Does the server need to throttle down everyone, because else it can't make sure that the lagging client is catching up and in sync? Why can't it just provide to THAT client low quality information about positions (i.e. skip some position updates for the lagger)?

Ultimately a ping limit (with auto-kick) would be the only way to help everyone else getting pwned by the lagger (specially in PvP).

Updated by Salah over 4 years ago

Sometimes, I get the impression, BIS needs to rewrite the ENTIRE netcode to get rid of this. :(

Updated by Suma over 4 years ago

  • Due date changed from 10/11/2010 to 11/01/2010
  • Assignee changed from Dwarden to Suma
  • % Done changed from 10 to 20

Updated by Pauliesss over 4 years ago

I have these problems too and to be honest, it is unbelievable annoying and should be resolved if possible.

Updated by Vipera over 4 years ago

I saw many AI warps last week on Warfare maps (Benny Edtion). I have played with ARMA2_OA_Build_77068. Same build worked fine on some servers and very bad on others even if I had ping ~100.

Updated by HeinBloed over 4 years ago

There is one more worry while using sniper rifles on long distances. In addition to the periodicaly update (and warping) of the AI position it will be updated every time you shoot. This means in effect a moving AI is warping almost everytime you shoot on it.

Updated by Taskmaster over 4 years ago

This a very frustrating bug which has been around since OFP. It think it has improved slightly since then but trying to shoot someone at a distance is very frustrating and unrealistic. I think a solution to this should be a high priority, please.

Updated by Suma about 4 years ago

  • Due date changed from 11/01/2010 to 01/03/2011
  • % Done changed from 20 to 40

Updated by Suma about 4 years ago

  • Due date changed from 01/03/2011 to 03/01/2011

Updated by Tscheche about 4 years ago

this is atm the most annoing bug in coop mission most folks i try to drag to the game drop the game exactly this point. Also the serverfreezes are very annoying but im not sure thats part of this bug anyway

Updated by stk about 4 years ago

Yep this has been here since OFP days and its a pain in that ass as I am all ways a sniper hence this effects me way to often :(

Updated by kju about 4 years ago

  • Operating system deleted (WinXP 32 bit)
  • Graphics card deleted (Nvidia 8800 GTS 512MB)
  • Graphics card driver version deleted (185.85)
  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.52.71816 to 1.58.78473
  • CPU deleted (n/a)
  • Audio card deleted (Please specify!)
  • Size of OS swap file deleted (Please specify!)

Updated by INNOCENTandCLUELESS about 4 years ago

Playing Warfare and using MBTs is almost impossible. I looks like the fact that I fire my shell onto the targeted tank triggers the server to update the game to all clients and my target disappears and spawns 10 50 m away.

Updated by Lonestar about 4 years ago

Have you ever thought it could be related to server configuration?

Does it happen on both Windows and Linux servers?

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1879273&postcount=15

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/18007

Updated by kju almost 4 years ago

[79670] Fixed: AI warping at distance in singleplayer

It confuses me that is says singleplayer though

Updated by miljo almost 4 years ago

It confuses me that is stays singleplayer though

Right, because the major problem is in multiplayer... let's hope.

Updated by Fireball almost 4 years ago

Well, I'll leave it to Suma to update progress as he sees it fit, and due to the MP nature I'll wait with Resolved state. It's probably due for either some non-MP-compat BETA or RC before 1.60.

Updated by alef almost 4 years ago

[79670] Fixed: AI warping at distance in singleplayer

Could it be #1686 "Beaming of Units in Singleplayer" ?

Updated by Fireball almost 4 years ago

alef wrote:

Could it be #1686 "Beaming of Units in Singleplayer" ?

That ticket states ejecting from a truck as pre-requisites which is clearly same as in #3116, which had been fixed earlier as confirmed by Suma, so I'm still a bit puzzled.

Updated by Suma almost 4 years ago

  • Tracker changed from Feature to Bug

Updated by alef over 3 years ago

  • Target version set to 1.60 BETA

Updated by Anunnaki over 3 years ago

You must make difference between:
1.) server AIs (this can be partially solved by settings in base/basic.cfg )
2.) players AIs (own AIs or other players AIs) ... there is no way how to solve this

In CASE when you reffering to case 2., this is not BUG, this is how is game network engine using player's upload line.
In other words, how often are clients (players) sending their positions (player and his AIs) to the server.

I created ticket for that issue, you can VOTE for it:
http://dev-heaven.net/issues/23241

Updated by kju over 3 years ago

  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.58.78473 to 1.59.79384

I think this can be set resolved now.

Unfortunately for remote AI this improvement does not yet work.
Therefore I added new tickets for the remaining issues:

  • #24014: Remote AI ground vehicles at large distance are not updated properly
  • #24015: Remote AI infantry at beaming back and forth while moving

Updated by Suma over 3 years ago

  • Status changed from Assigned to Resolved

I agree. The new topics seem to be a high quality, easy to work with. Let us close this as a SP solution and continue MP work in the new ones.

Updated by Fireball over 3 years ago

  • Category changed from Multiplayer to Animations

Updated by Anunnaki over 3 years ago

Not solved for MP, continue here: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/24034

Updated by Fireball over 3 years ago

Anunnaki wrote:

Not solved for MP, continue here: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/24034

#24034 looks like a different issue to me. This one, or rather now #24014, #24015 are about AI units beaming around in MP, not players.

Updated by Anunnaki over 3 years ago

Main problem is ALL NON-LOCAL OBJECTS FOR OBSERVER motion is jerky, some more, some less ( http://dev-heaven.net/issues/24034 ).
This is because there is bug BUG in game network core system. Its about how engine sends positional updates of all objects ("constant=periodical position updates" or "non-periodical=event motion updates").

Other tickets are about why some remote objects are moving more jerky than others. Of course, there are some difference between objects, how often game core send their positional updates to other computers depending on vehicle type/speed, distance from local player and etc. I was just pointing this main problem here.

Updated by Fireball over 3 years ago

  • Due date deleted (03/01/2011)

Updated by Kol9yN over 3 years ago

Belive, players beaming to, very hard beaming and warping :(...

Updated by Suma over 3 years ago

  • Assignee deleted (Suma)

Updated by Sickboy over 3 years ago

  • Status changed from Resolved to Closed

Updated by kju about 3 years ago

  • Target version changed from 1.60 BETA to 1.60.87580

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