Bug #17316

5.56 doesn't do enough damage at distance (~300m)

Added by BushTucka over 4 years ago. Updated over 3 years ago.

Status:Closed Start date:02/04/2011
Priority:Normal Due date:08/31/2011
Assignee:Sonsalt % Done:

100%

Category:-
Target version:1.13
Component:sys_wounds Affected Version:
Close Reason:

Description

5.56x45mm NATO rounds and 5.45x39mm rounds should both be capable of dropping (incapacitating, the same affect they have now on a target 10-20 meters away) at 300 meters. After 300 meters they should become less effective, but up until 350meters, should have a good chance to cause serious damage. It shouldn't take 6 hits from a rifle to drop an armored target well within effective range.

Testing and info on the 2 rounds will be added in my comment below if you wih to read more.

health_20test1.Chernarus.pbo - Repro mission (94.9 kB) BushTucka, 02/05/2011 05:32


Related issues

related to A.C.E. for OA - Support #17315: ACE wounds Rejected 02/04/2011
related to A.C.E. for OA - Feature #16346: AI should not treat themselves with medical items in comb... Assigned 12/31/2010
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #11479: Bullets do not enough damage over distance Closed 06/26/2010
related to A.C.E. for OA - Feature #18048: Pistol rounds not combat effective with ACE Wounds Duplicate 03/05/2011
related to A.C.E. for OA - Feature #18946: Mk.262 rounds are not powerful enough Closed 04/16/2011
related to A.C.E. for OA - Feature #25541: Improved incapacitation upon hit Closed 10/16/2011
related to A.C.E. for OA - Support #25894: New wounding system is very nice Closed 10/26/2011

Associated revisions

Revision d8e13f87
Added by Sandiford about 4 years ago

sys_wounds per round penetrationMultiplier, refs #17316

History

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

The problem is that the rounds lose effectiveness well within their real life effective ranges. For example, 6 body shots were required to drop and incap an armored target (russian and usmc, also us army and BAF units have given extremely similar results) at 300 meters, all shots were hitting the target's chest, not the weapon,not the arms or legs or shoulders, as my spotter next to me was pointing out. Same story when i was shooting his back, 6 shots. For the record in codemaster's game: dragon rising, it takes 3 body hits to kill someone, and that game is not at all known for it's realism.

What I believe is going on is the weapon and wounding systems are tested within 100meters rather than out to 400 meters like an assault rifle should. A 5.56x45mm NATO round has been proven to do it's job extremely well within 300 meters against an armored target. Against unarmored targets (say a skinny Somalian or afghan fighter) it's main design flaw is apparent, it does not tend to tumble before 5.5inches (~13.75cm), and it also doesn't lose much speed when it penetrates soft flesh as apposed to hard ceramic plates an Kevlar, so it has a habit of passing straight through the target without causing much damage, and unless it strikes bone, an unarmored target probably could (and some have been reported to) take up to six shots to be taken down. (For example in the book "RONIN", the true story of a scout sniper unit in fallujah 2005-06) This is not the case in a game like arma as most of the factions are all wearing body armor, including the Russians and USMC. Note that all unarmored targets have good armor values, and they generally drop with 1 shot within 300 meters, the main problem are the armored units, for example playing as USMC versing Russians, or even if the play has standalone OA, playing as an insurgent versing US Army, the US troops are nearly invincible.

This is gamebreaking stuff. Also when testing this please test against US army, USMC and Russians rather then just takistani militia please, as i understand they have larger health values to simulate body armor. Thanks in advanced.

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

Is enhanced armor difficulty disabled, in the server/your game's difficulty settings ?

How do you measure that they don't do enough damage?
The system is largely based on blood loss - more holes - more blood loss...
Movement -> increased blood loss.

The fact that unit doesn't go down directly does not mean he has no damage, or won't go out soon

Please add a repro mission with the units and distances you desire.
And add seperate section of Observed Result and Expected Result.

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

  • Due date set to 02/04/2011
  • Status changed from New to Feedback
  • Priority changed from Urgent to Normal

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

enhanced armor is off, i always play on expert:) What I was trying to say is that armored targets just like unarmored targets should be incapacitated in one shot from a direct body shot from a 5.56x45mm/5.45x39mm.

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

  • Tracker changed from Feature to Bug
  • Subject changed from ACE WOUNDS: 5.56x45mm NATO and 5.45x39mm changes to 5.56 doesn't do enough damage at distance (~300m)

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

will do, although may take a while, am getting ready for bed here in Australia.

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

  • Assignee set to Sandiford
  • Component set to sys_wounds

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

cheers, do you still want repro?

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

BushTucka wrote:

cheers, do you still want repro?

Yes

Updated by Sandiford over 4 years ago

  • % Done changed from 0 to 50

wounds currently treats all armoured units as having soft body armour - protects from pistols, fragments, shotguns (maybe)
US soldiers also have ballistic inserts that protect from rifle rounds (although only for a few shots), but haven't got around to modelling these yet

I've checked the current armour strength and it's a bit high for soft armour, it is affecting 5.56 at 300m as you suggested

The question is whether we want more realistic soft armour modelling (reduce current armour value) or more realistic overall armour value (keep the current mid-way armour)

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

The thing is most modern militaries would start using AP rounds if their was ever a war against a more 'developed' country, and yes, soft armor is what I, along with most others are really wanting.

Also about the US combat armor, it is very sturdy and has proven to stop some rifle rounds at close range, yet in the field there have been many US casualties from direct hits, I think when officials say their body armor stops rounds, they mean it can stop rounds, not 100%, and considering the bulk of Improved Outer Tactical Vest, (best protection for regular infantry to date) was introduced around 2008, and the improved m855a1 and mk318 ammunition has just been ordered by the marines and just been adopted by the army, (m855a1 having a copper core with a 19-grain (1.2 g) steel “stacked-cone” penetrating tip, meaning it is considerably better at penetrating armor) (mk318 is a hollow point round that, although it wont do much in the way of penetration, will destroy unarmored targets with extreme ease.) The m855a1 order has been cancelled because it does not perform well in high temperature environments, yet in temperate zones (chernarus etc) it will perform exceptionally well, it's penetration is actually better then that of the standard 7.62x51mm NATO round. A new and improved m855a1 round is currently being worked on that will perform just as well under high temperature environments as it will in colder environments, and it should be ready by June this year.

When it comes to body armor stopping higher caliber rounds (ie the 7.62x51mm NATO or the 7.62x39mm M67), the Interceptor armor, or the newer Improved Outer Tactical Vest is somewhat capable of stopping 7.62mm rounds, yet this is based of a new US ballistics testing system known as v50 or velocity 50%, as apposed to v0, or velocity0, (the velocity the projectile needs to be travelling at to be completely stopped by the body armor), so there have been MANY cases where 7.62x39mm M67 rounds have penetrated the frontal armor of the IOTV, and even if the round is stopped, the force the round still delivers would be bone shattering (probably similar to taking a sledge hammer to the chest in the armor), and could break/fracture the sternum and/o ribs, could quite possibly stop the heart AND if the target has any respiratory problems it could cause extreme damage as well. The new improved 5.56x45mm m855a1 has better penetration values then the 7.62x51mm NATO round, so I would not be surprised if it could penetrate most modern body armor systems.

Either way, for now could we please have the 5.56x45mm and the 5.45x39mm rounds incapacitate units at 300 meters (including units with body armor), if you need anything to go by, the mk17 has the damage values I am looking for, it drops the target in one direct shot and will temperamentally incapacitate the target. The 5.56x45 and 5.45x39mm rounds should be capable of doing this and the larger rounds should just have the same effect at longer range but should keep the target down for longer and cause worse bleeding effects.

If you would like to go for absolutely full realism, a body armor module may be a good idea, but this could turn out to be extremely game breaking IF it is done done really well. I shall add my ideas on a body armor module in a separate ticket. It would however, require a reworked health system and hit recognition system, as well as additional round types with different effects, eg: armor piercing and hollow point etc etc. For now please just reduce all units health values to that of unarmored units like takistani militia, as this would provide a quick fix that we all want/need.

Thanks for looking into this ticket all the same.
regards, Bush.

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

Oh and @ sickboy, i have to clean the house up now, but I am currently putting together a repro mission for you.

Updated by rye over 4 years ago

First sentence is wrong, AP rounds are used anyway - doesn't matter what country or insurgent group you're up against. Standard tests aren't against AP rounds normally (thought some are) and you're right they use reduced load rounds to simulate shots taken from certain distances and less velocity - which isn't always 100%. Then comes API, MK211 and other rounds (even the SLAP) which add more effect on target - the exact reason they were made, more damage on target and damage that doesn't need penetration because incendiary, high explosive effects are going to happen anyway and cause damage to this target.

I think both should be tweaked at little Sandiford, at least temporarily to see how the damage values compare and if they get any better in terms of terminal and wound ballistics. But I'd lean on the overall more than anything - specifics can come later. The ballistic inserts, you mean ceramic plates? Yeah they tend to crack and break up - imagine a mirror being hit by force - this is what happens, overall cracking effect leading the projectiles to penetrate after a number of rounds. It would be easier for the shooter to recongnise if they hit the targets body armour or if it actually penetrated too - by seeing blood splatter or not seeing blood splatter. Just my opinions there, thanks for reading.

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

Thanks rye, I am currently writing an article about how body armor could be implemented into ace mod in a realistic fashion. Will start ticket first and add article for anyone to read and add to. I wish you the best of luck saniford with what you are currently working on.

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

In this mission play with 5 players OR de pbo it and add in respawns so you can respawn as a different unit with a different weapon. With the smaller 5.56 and 5.45 rounds i was able to shoot units in the chest/back up to six times before they dropped uncoscious or dead, and it always took a minimum of 2 shots, but generally it was hard to tell if it was a head shot or not becasue blood splatter was soo big. Either way, the average hits to the chest/back to down is 5. For 7.62mm rounds, the mk17 took on average one shot to the chest to drop a target and to the sides and back it took an average of one shot to actually kill the unit instead. AKM was a little harder to test but generally the average to drop was one shot and it occasionally reached two chest shots. Make sure you actually use the spotting scope though, through an ACOG in SP, the blood splatters can be decieving...

My desired results are:
5.56x45mm and 5.45x39mm rounds achieving 1st and occasionally 2nd round incapacitation to the chest @ ranges =< 300 meters. (1 shot = around 70%, 2 shots is 29.85% 3 shots is 0.15%)
7.62mm rounds should achieve 1st round kill at ranges =< 300 meters, although incap should occasionlly occur. After that they should achieve a 1st round incap at ranges =<500 meters
Overwise heavy bleeding should be the result of an indirect hit or a shot to the limbs.

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

this is all with ace wounds on AND enhanced armor off

Updated by rye over 4 years ago

Bush went to bed. He was saying using Loki Key - Bullet Cam, 5.56 was going like 600m/s when IRL M/V is 915m/s give or take 10. This could have some effect on the impact. Could be linked, don't know if your M/V is right, but it's worthing checking.

EDIT:
Yeah it's good - starts at around 3000ft/s drops 700 ft/s within 1/4 second which is correct. Nice job.

EDIT:
He was talking about different weapons, same rounds so it is like the damage values are set for certain weapons but it is the ammunition that does the damage. This could be apart of the problem.

Updated by Sonsalt over 4 years ago

There are several factos that need to be taken into account,

1. Initial Damage (body parts...)
2. Blood loss on impact
3. follow up damage
4. Armor

I order to keep this balanced, all these parameters need to be considered.

Updated by AnimalMother92 over 4 years ago

Regarding the performance of 5.56 vs 7.62, it would be nice if this was reflected. The M855A1 is already being put out there.

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

m855a1 AFAIK has proven unreliable in the heat of A-stan, the USMC have actually cancelled orders and ordered mk.318 hollow point rounds. Great against unarmoured insurgents, not so much against armoured targets though, but the m855a1 is being worked on and a heat resistant version should be ready by June this year.

Updated by AnimalMother92 over 4 years ago

Old news, was already fixed. We're in 2011
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/07/marine_ammo_071110w/

Additionally, it might be good to take another look at the effectiveness of our Mk262 round
See - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/mk262.htm

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

I stand corrected, I would like to see this round in play as well.

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

  • Target version set to 1.9
  • % Done changed from 50 to 70

Sandiford has applied some changes to improve the behaviour somewhat.

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

Thanks for the changes mate, this is already improving gameplay. I think i dropped someone at 300 meters with one shot, but i had no spotter and it may have been a headshot, it's quite hard even without ace wind on, and I had no time to properly test, but this is very decent mate. Cheers.

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

although maybe the implementing of armor peircing rounds would be cool, not rounds that do extra damage, but rounds that almost always (in some rare cases no) peirce the armor, and then have the same affects as if they just pierced a takiban fighter with no armor. If this idea sounds cool with you guys, please reply and I will post another ticket.

Updated by tolko_download over 4 years ago

What about other calibers like 7.62?

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

tolko_download wrote:

What about other calibers like 7.62?

You tell us - how does it behave currently? :D

Updated by tolko_download over 4 years ago

Sickboy :)

Well, I have some questions about behaviour of 7.62 but I will create ticket when I will get more information.

Now I have only one question - does AI/Players have additional armor / health / any other resistance factors when they are in vehicles? For example M2 gunner (stationary gun) or UAZ DSHkM gunner needs to get about +30-100% of ammo to kill them. Don't know why but it is my supervision, concerns rounds of any calibres.

Updated by stk over 4 years ago

Hi tolko.

If I understand your asking that enemy`s take an extra hit to kill while in a stationery gun position?.

If so then yes I was told this is an ARMA2 bug and not and ACE2 bug?.

Updated by rye over 4 years ago

Yup that is a BIS issue for stationary gunners etc.
The other night we hit the guy with a 50 about 4 times (ACE wounds on) before he died, just one of those things.

7.62 used to behave really really bad, so we stopped using it. We created a ticket about 7.62 damage a while back which got rejected. I'll try test it again at somepoint.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/M80.jpg

Updated by tolko_download over 4 years ago

stk
Hi!

Exactly! I hope BIS sometime will solve this issue.

rye
Where had you created ticket about 7.62 caliber? If you will create new ticket about 7.62 issues I will support it with vote and can make some tests / demo missions / videos.

Updated by rye over 4 years ago

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/10611 d/w about it tolko was rejected. I hope either ACE or BIS can fix or try sort out the hitpoint system a little, it really sucks. Even with ACE wounds on and enhanced armour off they take multiple shots. Maybe it's me but that's from a point of view of always playing on a dedicated server - I'm sure in a single player mission or editor it would work fine without dedicated server issues and mp issues.

We were playing the MSO and at 1,700m it was taking 3 shots average to take people out - with a .50 cal (temporary cavity the size of your whole chest at that range, enough to knock you down and completely knock you out, nevermind kill). Could be a number of reasons - BIS should sort out their engine problems related to it.

Updated by rocko over 4 years ago

  • Status changed from Feedback to In progress

Updated by Sonsalt over 4 years ago

This "bug" is related to the medic system.

Bloss and side effects compensate for the lack in instant damage.

If you overtune the projectile instant damage, it will cause instant deaths way more often on short ranges again, breaking the damage system.

Also it the damage is affected by the type of body armor.

Updated by BushTucka over 4 years ago

Just increase the damage at the certain velocity? The effective range of an m16 is 300 meters, while a standard m855 (or m855a1) will not penetrate first round against modern body armour but against russian enemies standard ball rounds will not be used, instead AP rounds will be, this is just a compensation. Here, I am working on a work around to the limited hitpoint system to correctly implement body armour and proper life like wounds: http://dev-heaven.net/projects/ace-mod2/issues

Updated by Marksman about 4 years ago

Consider that takistan rebels don't have any protection but still stand after beeing shooted

Updated by Sickboy about 4 years ago

Sonsalt wrote:

This "bug" is related to the medic system.

Bloss and side effects compensate for the lack in instant damage.

If you overtune the projectile instant damage, it will cause instant deaths way more often on short ranges again, breaking the damage system.

Also it the damage is affected by the type of body armor.

Updated by rye about 4 years ago

Lol that made no sense. Especially as taki insurgents have no visual body armour, if they are based on afghan/iraq insurgents then NO body armour (i don't care about the soft armour LVLIII and below, some might use - 556 penetrates it).

Read Bushtuckas PDF on it for a better wounding system/body armour system - dependable on organ hits, main areas of the human body etc. Instant deaths at short ranges is not reality - understood but you can counter this by making a better wounding system based on wound profiles and ballistics.

Updated by Sickboy about 4 years ago

BushTucka wrote:

Here, I am working on a work around to the limited hitpoint system to correctly implement body armour and proper life like wounds: http://dev-heaven.net/projects/ace-mod2/issues

Links to the issue tracker, not a specific ticket.

rye wrote:

Lol that made no sense. Especially as taki insurgents have no visual body armour, if they are based on afghan/iraq insurgents then NO body armour (i don't care about the soft armour LVLIII and below, some might use - 556 penetrates it).

I'm not sure why it makes no sense to you.
See the bold bit I quoted: Blood loss and side effects like unconsciousness are the main thing of the wounding system, so regardless of units not dropping upon getting hit, they will drop sooner or later due to bloodloss etc. Bloodloss exponentially increases during movement, so if they move they die even sooner.
On top of that, damage influences their ability to aim etc, and if fleeing is allowed, increase the chance on fleeing.
If the surrender module is enabled, they will even surrender.

If you guys feel you can do better - go ahead, make it and donate it; http://ace.dev-heaven.net/wagn/Contribute (But watch out concerning complexity/performance implications)
Don't expect anything beyond tweaks from us in the coming time (like Sandi is working on http://dev-heaven.net/projects/ace-mod2/repository/show?rev=feature/sys_wounds_sandi).

Updated by rye about 4 years ago

The B/A part made no sense to me, as Taki Ins do not have B/A. Type of body armour, no sense either - show me an insurgent wearing military grade b/a (normally IIIA+) that can stop high velocity rounds, .50 rounds too. :D

Half the time they randomly get back up, even when knocked down and visually look unconscious (a minute or so after, even a few minutes after hitting them) or just bandage themself and their bloodloss issue is instantly solved (even when hit by a large round, in a high-chance kill shot area (of course there are some cases that this doesn't happen and it works fine)). As stated in: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/17356. The wounding system hasn't accounted for some rounds like the .50 cal and the sheer killing power of the thing - therefore units keep going after being hit, that's apart of the problem. You'd go down - because you'd be dead. :D

I'm not saying them bandaging themselves is a problem - because you would try to heal yourself, it's just it's instant and doesn't make any sense to bandage infront of someone who has just shot you. And it doesn't make sense that you can take so much, heal up, take more again (maybe heal up again) before dying - and the AI always do this, yet when players get hit once or twice, they are down and out for the count. I could really imagine these Taki insurgents with 10 entry and exit holes in them and little bandaids around each hole making it magically all better. :D

It cannot get too complex because of performance - understood. And you cannot just increase bullet damage as it would almost instantly kill all the time - understood (unless it was a large round that would just obliterate you like a .50 upwards - changing these damage values would not effect performance and would make it more realistic).

Here is Bush's link for realistic B/A: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/17345 - the newer pdf has better wounding info, pretty sure he sent it to Sandi. If it can't be done, it can't be done - the engine sucks at hitpoints. I just really wish, if it would allow, that ACE could make a better wounding system accounting for organs, vital areas etc. I saw a CIT ticket about this issue and agreed with most posts - BIS should look it into it too. Maybe then we would see a more realistic combat environment.

Sorry for the long post, not trying to argue dude. Just saying - if it can be done... it would make it 100x better. If it cannot be done, then i'll just put up with hitting people with large rounds, of whom survive or with direct kill shots or high probability kill shots to organs and the CNS.

Updated by BushTucka about 4 years ago

@rye, sanford said that even my initial idea of adding a hit location for soft armour, hard armour plates, upper and lower body is too complicated and impossible for current engine as hit reg sucks, so your idea involving seperate organs and stuff to have own hit reg sections cant be done lol, great idea though, hopefully arma3 :D

Although saniford is working on a workaround for this by detecting the shots location in that same hit reg area, for example: center, side etc. Once stuff like targets flinching or stumbling when shot is complete (and other cool awesome features, kudos saniford +1 :D ) saniford said he is going to implement some of our changes, and although initially writing up the code for the first time may seem a hassle, but the surprise hit point workaround rye and i proposed to saniford WILL make life a LOT easier for ace team in the long term. No more nasty trial and error :D

Will release an edited version of the doco i wrote for saniford shortly with some changes involving hit reg sections, and the secret hit point work around will be revealed :)

And @ sickboy, i can't be entirely sure about everyone else, but i can assure you rye and I are not on DH to criticize ACE about what we want but dont have and everything 'bad' about the mod, but we are here to try and help ACE become better. Please do not take offense if we say a system could be better, as we are not dissing the work of you or others, as we know we could not produce nearly as high quality work ourselves, but we are here to provide our real life knowledge (without being to needy as we know arma has limitations) to help you guys improve the realism and authenticity of ace. I hope you have not taken offense to any of my comments on DH, although it feels to me like you have taken offense to some of my feedback or ideas, maybe this is the case or maybe im just a tard idk :D

Updated by BushTucka about 4 years ago

Oh and @ sickboy the bloodloss compensating for instant damage is ALL taken care of if our idea, you will like as it will reduce need for constant trial and error tests for every ammo and body armour type :D
The idea seems very doable too:)

Updated by tolko_download about 4 years ago

BushTucka
Do not forget about BIS netcode: some of your hits don't count (due different reasons - lags, engine issues or UFO forces lol) and it looks like useless round wasting.

Updated by Sickboy about 4 years ago

Thanks Bush - All help is welcome - but you should not expect, regardless if you supply PDF's and a lot of other data, that it will be implemented.
Complexity, manpower and motivation plays a big role.

Hence my remark - if you guys feel you can do better - go right ahead. I do not have the time nor motivation currently, and Xeno probably neither. Sandiford has some - so cool.
But otherwise pick up the script-axe and get picking! :)

rye wrote:

The B/A part made no sense to me, as Taki Ins do not have B/A. Type of body armour, no sense either - show me an insurgent wearing military grade b/a (normally IIIA+) that can stop high velocity rounds, .50 rounds too. :D

B/A makes no sense perhaps in relation to the Taki ins or 50 cal, but that was also not the main bit I quoted, see bold stuff.

Anyway, I wish you all luck with it.

Updated by BushTucka about 4 years ago

i would be more than happy to give it a go, but for a quick fix, could armor piercing rounds be implemented, and also, all subsonic ammunition is completely useless as of now, against an unarmored taliaban, it took me like 7 shots i think?I am not completely sure, but either way, this is way to much.

Updated by Sandiford about 4 years ago

relative AP characteristics (giving rifles better penetration as I calibrated soft armour on pistols) is implemented in my feature branch, will be in ACE after stable is released.

assuming the round penetrates any armour, velocity has little effect on damage done. If you have issues with subsonic rounds set up a repoducible test in the editor as it may be a config error on a unit or ammo type

Updated by Sickboy about 4 years ago

BushTucka wrote:

against an unarmored taliaban, it took me like 7 shots i think? I am not completely sure, but either way, this is way to much.

While with 4 shots he probably bleeds into unconscious and death not too soon after?

Updated by BushTucka about 4 years ago

@sickboy the fact he is not dropped at all is still very unrealistic, if you have seen any ballistics gelatin tests, you will see how th temporary cavity will cause massive wounds to any soldier. I can assure you with 100% certainty that any stories of soldiers taking multiple rounds and still fighting are lying down already. We are working on getting realistic wounding data as well as body armour penetration atm. And sickboy, the non subsonic rounds do much more damage. This is all at point blank range, not at all realistic. PLease fix. @saniford, i am busy tonight but i will make mission asap.

Updated by stk about 4 years ago

Hi actually

"the non subsonic rounds do much more damage. This is all at point blank range, not at all realistic"

Is not unbelievable have you heard of over kill?.

I have seen many documentary where the smaller slower round did more damage (AT CLOSE RANGE) than a larger faster round.

Reason is the slower round will tend to transfer the energy into the body cavity but the larger round tends to go through the body not transferring all of its energy.

I have seen this a lot when I use to go hunting.

Updated by rye about 4 years ago

@sickboy - i have seen them die! I actually saw some guy take a 7.62, try running away then fall down and didn't get up. Someone got a kill for him (I think) - was awesome and the first time I've seen that. Normally they'd go down, unconscious then get back up a few minutes later. I don't recall them doing that but I do recall some unconscious guys needing an extra shot to die (naturally). Then again, we were not standing around for a few minutes to see if they would get back up.

@stk yeah faster, larger rounds = faster velocity - less energy transfered within the shorter period of time, still a large cavity but some are not enough to kill (depending on bullet, calibre, where it hit etc), just in and out - but if it was large as in 50 cal + large it would mess you up - some rounds have a lot of energy to transfer and are big and heavy so they do a lot of damage anyway. Depends what it hits on the way too and what it hits within the body, part of the body.

That is why you try get them in effective range, so the round is going slower to do more damage.

@bushtucka - SD at close range is good, if it's a non-armoured target. Which it was (Insurgent). If the target is armoured then you arent going to damage them unless you hit open areas like the head and limbs. 7 shots is extreme, centre mass should of at least took them down and killed after <2-4 rounds. But sometimes it can happen, burst and full auto mode for situations like that. It should be a rare event but you said you restarted and retested it and the results were the same, or at least similar, maybe one shot less but still. Thoracic cavity + a slower round, which is better for closer ranges which may tumble more. They haven't accounted for organs, cns etc (which they cant cos it would be too laggy) and increasing damage might make it kill at 100-200m with SD which wouldnt be right. Maybe there could be a way around it but I don't know.

"the travelling very slow compared to normal rounds. Energy is 0.5 times mass time the velocity squared. Sub sonics are squaring a number less than 330. 5.56 ammo is squaring 905 at the muzzle for comparison.

Subsonic rounds travel below the speed of sound so they dont produce a crack upon wizzing past your head if the shot is missed.

Some times. there are many trade-offs in ammo develoment depnding on what you want to acheive. As an example, most sub-sonics dont have a really pointy tip, cause it gives no really huge aero advantage.

Pointy tip is a must at supersonic velocities. I saw some pics today of pigs that were shot back in the mid 90's with a frangible (breaks up) projecitle that was developed. Frangible is popular for training as it will breakup on hitting a hard target (be totally useless against any ballistic vest), but hitting a human (or pig) targt is impressive.

The frangible projectiles are blunt, yet do about 1150m/s (getting close to mach 4). the idea is that they slow down quick and reduce total range. Accuracy is acceptable out to about 100m or so, but the damage is massive. One pig had most of the rear side of its head missing.

More propellant of a faster burning nature. The proecite is less than a 3rd of the mass of the normal projectile. (In SD rounds)" - I asked a friend who said this.

GOD DAMN my posts are long, sorry.

Updated by rocko about 4 years ago

  • Target version changed from 1.9 to 1.10

Updated by BushTucka about 4 years ago

@stk, every round performs differently, rye and I are working very hard on getting very accurate info on wounding effects of different rounds and we can tell you that from what we have seen, a bullet (of any kind) will do it's job and drop a target. The effect is more than just 6 or 7 stab wounds from a knife for example, bullets tear, yaw, tumble, fragment and rupture muscle, bones, nerves and various types of blood vessels. Even if the target is lucky and the round did not hit any internal organs, bones or majour arteries, just the pain form the gunshot, coupled with the teared muscles will leave the target incapable of performing to the standard an un-injured soldier would perform to. In most cases (pretty much every single one) just the shock of a round coupled with the pain will topple any human target, and if that fails, the muscles being ripped to shred and not being able to hold him up will do the trick.
While the different effects of each round will differ from round to round, the point is, bullets kill, they are made to kill and wound, and they do an exceptional job in doing so.

Gun shot wounds are always a lot more serious than the ones you see in movies. Wounds to center mass will almost certainly hit somethign vital, i mean, all the internal organs are sooo closely packed together, then there is the spine and ribs, which if hit will stop you from standing, while abominable muscles may not be as vital to stay standing up, when hit they will seize up and force you forwards. Then the legs; a direct hit to a bone or muscle will stop you from being able to stand, period. On a fit soldier, or a malnourished derka derka, there is not much ass for the bullet to hit, only bone, muscle, and maybe if they are lucky: joints and tendons... Gun shot wounds to center mass (rifle calibers) will rip chucks out of you. A shot to the shoulder could for instance, tear a hole in your arm. Even low impact pistol rounds produce a temporary cavity inside the body that will be large enough to hit something vital in the incredibly small chance that the round did not hit anything directly. My main point is, bullets are horrible little bastards that were made to kill and incapacitate soldiers to stop them from fighting, and they do an exceptionable job of this.
SD or super sonic, bullets should kill, especially un-armoured taliban fighters, after all, they have been made and tested to kill IRL.

Updated by maturin about 4 years ago

BushTucka: Exactly. And all that nasty, not-necessarily-fatal trauma should result in incapacitation (unconsciousness) in-game. I just made a ticket where soldiers were combat effective and mobile after taking two TWELVE .45 ACP rounds to the leg or arm at point-blank range. They just needed to bandage to avoid the bleeding.

No amount of bandages and sutures could help you with that sort of trauma.

That said, given that we need to keep things simple, let's steer clear of the inconsistent, mysterious results of junk science concepts like hydrostatic shock and energy transfer, and stick to the hard criteria of armor penetration, permanent cavity size and terminal ballistics such as fragmentation and yaw.

Updated by Militantsausage about 4 years ago

does anyone know if this is still in progress? Its been at 70% for a while, and I still haven't noticed much more lethality in the 5.56 round.

Updated by Sickboy about 4 years ago

The status says what currently is; in progress.
You won't notice much until it's Resolved and Closed.

Updated by Sickboy about 4 years ago

  • Target version changed from 1.10 to 1.11

Updated by Sonsalt about 4 years ago

About the damage system,

As injuries and the healing progress will get more complex http://dev-heaven.net/issues/8707; http://dev-heaven.net/issues/15931

damage effects will get more visible and death does not need to be immediate anymore.

However all of it depends on how the ACE system will work with the AI (Bloss, unconsciousness etc.).

Updated by BushTucka about 4 years ago

an agony mode to fill the gap between uncon and combat effective?
This would be very realistic as a gunshot wound IRL may not kill or mortally wound someone instantly, although they will certainly not be combat effective. IF a unit is unable to bandage during his time it will also fix the 'AI waking straight back up and healing in middle of combat' issue as they will become agonized more often and only lose consciousness due to certain conditions (bloodloss, concussion etc) and will not wake up on their own (bloodloss caused uncon will obviously not allow you to wake back up :p )
To improve all damage and open windows for further developement into wounding detail and treatment the current damage formula could be modified; nothing replaced, it is great how it is; but a few new conditions and values (stuff like tumbling value (0 bein none and then anythign higher being seriousity of the tumbling) and fragmenting and expanding and exploding values and conditions.) which would be more realistic, make simulation wounds easier and in future if/when wounds and treatent become more complex this would also make that easier to deal with because the exact type of wound could be specified.
Rye and I would be more than happy to give lots of info on fragmenting and other round behaviours to help improve the damage system :)

Updated by Sickboy almost 4 years ago

Small Update: Damage for prone units should be improved with coming update thanks to Q11.

Updated by BushTucka almost 4 years ago

sweet, can you please apply the changes you made to the 556 to the 545, 556 is working really well now:)

Updated by maturin almost 4 years ago

5.56x45mm is now deadly or instantaneously incapacitating at 400m.

I tested this with a Mk. 12 loaded with normal ammo (not Mk. 262) because of accuracy and magnification issues with the M16s. If ACE has given it the correct muzzle velocity and no hidden buffs, it should be doing less or equal damage than an M16.

Please apply these changes to 5.45x39mm posthaste.

Updated by maturin almost 4 years ago

Same weapon loadout as above, firing at the torsos of US Army Squad Leaders.

At 500m, I kill 4 out of 6 targets with one shot, the others are knocked unconscious instantly.

At 600m, performance of the round rapidly drops off. I fail to score any first-round fatalities. Two targets fall unconscious but these may have been headshots. Two or so hits are needed to incapacitate or kill.

Damage to unarmored torso at point-blank range:
M4: .62
M16: .69-.7
Mk. 12: .7 (note this is with normal 5.56, I assume that Mk. 262 ammo hits harder.)

Updated by Sickboy almost 4 years ago

  • Target version changed from 1.11 to 1.12

Updated by maturin almost 4 years ago

Hey, did you guys roll back these awesome changes?!

I tested and couldn't reproduce any of the results from my last ticket. Both 556 and 545 are hitting at .27 at 300m, requiring multiple torso hits even with the Wounding Module.

If you put the update on hold in order to not be unfair to 5.45mm ammo I understand, but I loved the preliminary changes.

Updated by rocko almost 4 years ago

  • Due date changed from 02/04/2011 to 08/31/2011
  • Target version changed from 1.12 to Planned (Needs Contributors)

Updated by rocko over 3 years ago

  • Status changed from In progress to Expired
  • Target version deleted (Planned (Needs Contributors))

No further feedback?

Updated by rocko over 3 years ago

  • Target version set to Arma 3

Updated by Sonsalt over 3 years ago

I recently have changed the values for unconsciousness on impact damage. A good way to solve the issue with the 5.56 and the 7.62 not being effective on range would be to lower the threshold for unconsciousness.

The result is that on impact targets drop quicker, but the damage will be the same and the surviving chances are the same too. Also there is a good chance of waking up soon after.

The the values I worked with are abou 40% higher than the current unconsciousness settings.

please look into this, its acutally only a minor change with quite a nice effect

Updated by Sickboy over 3 years ago

Please specify which values you exactly changed in which pbo.

Updated by Sonsalt over 3 years ago

I have changed the following define stats within the script_component.hpp at the ACE_SYS_WOUNDS.pbo

#define __bloodlossadd1 0.001 // state 800
#define __painadd1 0.00005
#define __bloodlossadd2 0.002 // state 801
#define __painadd2 0.0002
#define __bloodlossadd3 0.003 // state 802
#define __painadd3 0.0005

These changes increase the bloss on impact and thus the bloss effect. I have also tested this with the most recent BetaARMA2_OA_Build_85478.

Over all the result is now way more realistic. In exchange for the increased Bloss effect, one might considder reducing the overall impact damage or increase the armor effect.

Updated by Sickboy over 3 years ago

  • Status changed from Expired to Closed
  • Assignee changed from Sandiford to Sonsalt
  • Target version changed from Arma 3 to 1.13
  • % Done changed from 70 to 100

Don't forget to run with the latest v1.60 betas or newer.

Also available in: Atom PDF