Bug #1701

Unrealistic, Impossible Detection mechanism (AI AND Player!)

Added by mr.g-c almost 6 years ago. Updated almost 5 years ago.

Status:Closed Start date:06/01/2009
Priority:Normal Due date:11/08/2009
Assignee:- % Done:

100%

Category:AI Issues
Target version:1.03.58627
Affected ArmA II version:1.03.58627 First affected build:
Reproduced by another DH user: First affected ArmA II version:
I am using some Mods: Single / Multi Player?:
I am using: BIForumURL:
Reproducible for you: NGUrl:
Related to content of DLC: WIKIurl:

Description

Obs:
Game engine reports you Units you can't really have heard or see.

Repro 1:
1) This mission shows the knowAbout values for player against a vehicle and a person, and the reverse.

Repro 2:
1) Editor
2) Placed a group of inf in the center of utes Airport
3) Player as non leader
4) Put hostile AI vehicles down at the coast se of the airport.
5) No direct Line-Of-Sight Possible

6) Moved around and wait.
7) Hold-down "right-mouse-button" and looked around

8) Suddenly get enemy units reported at distance.

9) Even worse on the map the exact Position of those Vehicles was displayed with their moving symbol

Exp:
  1. Detection should not be that precise only from audible information.
  2. Detection works through buildings, walls, and also the Landscape itself (Hills, etc.)
    Detection does not seem to be limit by objects or terrains.

arma2_2009-05-31_22-20-08-47.jpg (250.3 kB) mr.g-c, 06/01/2009 12:54

CIT_1701.utes.7z (969 Bytes) alef, 06/14/2009 14:44

CIT_1701_1.mp4 - video #1 (2.3 MB) alef, 06/29/2009 21:20

test.ArmA2Profile - profile used (9.8 kB) alef, 06/29/2009 21:20

CIT_1701_TankHeard__Idle.JPG - Tank heard but inaccurate information (215.8 kB) Rg, 07/01/2009 00:07

CIT_1701_TankMove.JPG - Give tank a move waypoint and you can hear it's engine (116.1 kB) Rg, 07/01/2009 00:07

CIT_1701_TankHeard_AfterMove.JPG - Tank heard but again with inaccurate information (200.4 kB) Rg, 07/01/2009 00:07

SmokeScreen.utes.pbo - demo mission to reproduce comment #25 (1.7 kB) Fireball, 07/06/2009 00:35

SP_SniperTeam_USMC.utes.pbo - The Mission (383.5 kB) mr.g-c, 07/07/2009 23:22

bug_detection_again.jpg - The screenshot after i detected the tank. Note that the message by AI was another far away tank detected by them 10 seconds after me (277.3 kB) mr.g-c, 07/07/2009 23:22

AI.Chernarus.7z (972 Bytes) Stark, 08/06/2009 20:23

CIT_1701_2_Chernarus.sqm (3.5 kB) alef, 08/07/2009 23:15


Related issues

related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #2067: Killing a UNAWARE AI unit instantly gives knowledge of th... Closed 06/14/2009
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #1704: Ai fires at reported enemy units which are not within the... Expired 06/01/2009 08/17/2009
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #2912: AI in static defense are shooting at enemy without line o... Closed 07/19/2009 09/25/2009
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #3603: AI in vehicles detect enemy vehicles too easily Assigned 08/12/2009 08/26/2011
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #3807: clairvoyant AI Expired 08/19/2009 07/14/2010
related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Bug #2650: Using the 2 Button (target acquisition) gives targets you... Expired 07/07/2009

History

Updated by Skeptic almost 6 years ago

AI without LOS magically converged on my roof top position from three sides... They of course remained on the ground but I was not seen while getting on the roof and haven't fired a single shot. MP game.

Updated by Vigilante almost 6 years ago

Well the mapicons are there because of your difficulty settings, set them to veteran or higher and their are gone.. The rest i cant confirm. (yet)

Updated by mr.g-c almost 6 years ago

Vigilante wrote:

Well the mapicons are there because of your difficulty settings, set them to veteran or higher and their are gone.. The rest i cant confirm. (yet)

Then you maybe did not understood the issue - its not about the map icons here. Im glad i was playing in this difficulty setting so i can proof it that you can detect units through hills/vegetation/buildings/everything.
The AI does this everytime (they cheat so to speak) but i was shocked that you can do it as player as well - even though it happen rather rarely - it indicates for me that there is something really broken in the detection mechanism.

Updated by Whisper almost 6 years ago

Confirmed, during campaign for me.
It is visible using the "T" minimap in mission, you get contacts there reported even though target is far away without LoS.
Confirmed in MP also, I had targets appearing magically on map during a Warfare mission. I nailed an ennemy player like that, while watching the map, the red icon apeared, with 2 buildings (town main bunker & 1 of the respawn bunkers)

Updated by Skeptic almost 6 years ago

That would be fine with two assumptions. 1. Let's say FO has enemy contact, 2. then potentially he could report location to his squad. AI including. I'm afraid this is not the case here.

Updated by mr.g-c almost 6 years ago

Yes this is really a annoying bug... even worse since AI tends to attack those targets sometimes, but instead of hitting them, they only fire at a hill or a house - lol.
See: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/1704

Updated by Sonsalt almost 6 years ago

I actually believe that this is not that bad. Having the enemy firing at enemies behind cover is part of the suppression tactic.

In Arma1 the AI only fired at that it can hit, now it fires at last known positions or at doorways.

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

I've also have seen this issue with a friend joined in a COOP mission with me hosting.

He was throwing a smoke grenade and robbed prone around in the smoke, and the AI was shooting him down precisely and lethally (head shot or similar), thus rendering smoke screens useless that way.

Updated by rusty almost 6 years ago

Watch the intro of the campaign ('daydream' while on flight deck).

The soldier next to you is aiming into the right wall (weird!!).
Possibly this is because he is targeting an object behind the wall.

Updated by kju almost 6 years ago

  • Priority changed from High to Normal

Updated by alef almost 6 years ago

  • File CIT_1701.utes.7z added
  • Due date set to 09/14/2009
  • Status changed from New to Assigned
  • Affected ArmA II version set to 1.01.57751

This repro shows the knowAbout values for player against a vehicle and a person, and the reverse.

Updated by alef almost 6 years ago

  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.01.57751 to 1.02.58064

Updated by Suma almost 6 years ago

  • Category set to AI Issues
  • Assignee set to Suma

Updated by Suma almost 6 years ago

I have tried to follow the repro but I was never able to reveal the enemy unit. Should I right-click once? Should I do it at some specific point on the screen? Orr should I right click around the screen wildly until I am lucky?

As this is highly voted issue, can someone interested please verify exact repro steps?

Updated by Suma almost 6 years ago

  • Status changed from Assigned to Feedback
  • Assignee deleted (Suma)

Updated by alef almost 6 years ago

  • Assignee set to alef

Updated by alef almost 6 years ago

  • File CIT_1701_1.mp4 added
  • File test.ArmA2Profile added
  • Status changed from Feedback to Assigned
  • Assignee changed from alef to Suma
  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.02.58064 to 1.02.58134
Repro
  • use the test.ArmA2Profile attached
  • as you get control of the player, walk forward 10 or 20 meters
Bug
  • player knowsAbout v will raise to ~0.3. v is a T72
  • doesn't happen to player knowsAbout h, a person
Expected
  • player AI should not hear nor see the tank which engines are off, 600m far, behind the hills

Updated by dvolk almost 6 years ago

Pretty sure this happens with infantry (squad members detecting enemy infantry without LOS), although apparently not in that test.

Updated by Suma almost 6 years ago

When I follow the repro from update 17, I really can see the raised knowsAbout value. However, the information obtained is inaccurate and is based only on sound. Even this is unrealistic, the tank should not be heard by AI on this distance unless it is moving. I am however unable to get any other bugs described or assume here, specifically:

- I do not seem map icon at the real position of the tank (the map icon I see is inaccurate, it is placed in a position where there is no tank)
- right clicking does nothing and never reveals the enemy target unless the target is visible

Note: the tank engines are not off. The engines are on, only they are not very loud, as the tank is staying still (the tank has "this engineon true" in its init line).

Updated by Suma almost 6 years ago

  • Status changed from Assigned to Feedback
  • Assignee changed from Suma to mr.g-c

The issue where slowly moving (or stopped, but engine on) tank was detected too far away is now fixed in 58199. As already noted, I cannot reproduce any other issues described here.

Updated by alef almost 6 years ago

Suma wrote:

Note: the tank engines are not off.

Forgot to revert back it off before send the sqm here. It didn't change the result.

Updated by mr.g-c almost 6 years ago

Suma wrote:

As already noted, I cannot reproduce any other issues described here.

Suma, with all appropriate respect towards you, i know that your sentence quoted by me does not mean that the bug is non-existent, but do you really think even all the german and global press, which have reported those issues over and over again, have imagined that out of their fantasies?
I know its possibly much "bla bla" for you to read it all and many of those reviewers are really not the smartest, but still it is no coincidence when in 4 of 5 reviews this AI cheating (especially was mentioned that AI detects soldiers through building) is getting named.

Im talking especially about this:

Detection works through buildings, walls, and also the Landscape itself (Hills, etc.)
Detection does not seem to be limit by objects or terrains.

I know its very hard to Repro, but it does happen. Enemies behind houses are getting detected and such stuff. I really will look within this week to find some campaign mission or any other editor mission to test it.

Cheers

Updated by Rg almost 6 years ago

Suma is correct on this test. The AI do hear the tank, but it is inaccurate information. #1 screenshot shows this.

I do agree that the idling engine should NOT be heard at that distance, but when it moves, you the player can easily hear it. Give the tank a move waypoint - #2 screenshot - and you can clearly hear the tank move and know the general direction. #3 screenshot again shows how inaccurate the information is. The word "Tank" is said because you can basically tell it's an armored vehicle, but you can't determine what type it is and if it's friendly or foe until you get more information. However it seems AI know it's enemy since its a red icon on the map (also says t72 on map icon). I believe it should be orange if unknown?

Suma, is it possible to adjust the volume levels AI hear from certain sound samples rather then overall hearing sensitivity? Example - vehicle idle sounds.

Updated by CarlGustaffa almost 6 years ago

I just tested for the first time, and I don't see the problem. Although I run using autodetection off (as most servers should do for coop), my AI reported a T72 in the demo. Also I run with no magic markers (again, as servers should do), but I turned it on for this test. I used this in a trigger:

tmp = [] spawn {while {true} do{"mt1" setMarkerPos getPos t1; sleep 2}}

where mt1 is a preplaced marker and t1 is an enemy T72. I had to get to about 300m distance before this so called 'cheat' kicked in, but the perceived distance was 500-550 meters away. I could hear the tank myself long before the AI could hear it.

So when players and reviewers think the AI is cheating, it is only putting markers at perceived and expected positions, and nowhere near accurate. Hence, I don't think it can be called a cheat.

When we play as an organized squad, we often use the term "audio on vehicle, direction 330 (±), unknown distance but not too far". From what I can see, this is excactly the level of situational awareness the engine gives the players by means of markers.

So why do I disable 'extended map info' for servers? Because it clutters up the map by marking too much unneeded stuff, and makes any recon play too easy. You can just sit on a hill not doing anything and everything updates itself.

What I do agree on, is that there should be an upper limit on detection distance for each class of vehicle. Air vehicles have the greatest detection as long as they are actually in the air. Otherwise they get the same as vehicles, maybe slightly higher (due to increased engine noise). Several kilometers should most definately be avoided, but I haven't seen this happen myself yet.

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

To back up my smoke screen issue, as part of what the reporter(s) in about this bug wrote, I've created a demo video plus attached the mission I used to test it, so everyone is able to verify it.

- The AI is looking away from me and is unaware of my location
- I throw a smoke grenade and wait until a thick smoke screen has developed
- firing off my rifle should definitely alert the AI but it should be unable to see or hit me, specially without any scope
- AI opens fire and hits me the first time pretty precisely, and later again even though I moved - looks like it used the force, Luke

Demo video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxa3l9EvG4Q [technical problem with youtube]

I uploaded the video (27.4 MB) to my files section: http://www.zerouptime.ch/files/arma2-smoke_screen.avi - for some reason YT doesn't want to take it

Updated by mr.g-c almost 6 years ago

It just did happen again as i thought to have a nice round in a SP map called "Sniper Team", Provided by our CWR-Man and BI-Moderator (forgot name, the one with the Pink Bi-Glasses sentence in signature).
Its a converted OFP mission he said. I attached it here also. Maybe just walk to that point to replicate (direct SW from start point). My VD was set to easy 1600m btw.

It was me who detected the tank with the right mouse button, even though the tank is extremely far away behind 2 bigger hills and its impossible to see or hear it.

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

Managed to find the correct format which YouTube swallows again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbRRdTkYwu4

Reproduce THAT! :-)

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

  • Assignee changed from mr.g-c to Suma

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

  • File SmokeScreen.utes.pbo added

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

Whoops I just realized I attached that one earlier. Sorry about that - you may remove it.

Updated by alef almost 6 years ago

  • File deleted (SmokeScreen.utes.pbo)

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

  • Assignee deleted (Suma)

I think the smoke screen issue is a whole different story (AI knows my position for too long after I moved into cover) and I will move it to a own bug, if the issue persists after the next patch.

Updated by Squelch almost 6 years ago

  • Due date changed from 09/14/2009 to 08/20/2009

Partially addressed in 1.03 Fixed: Reduced AI detecting slowly moving enemy vehicles by ear. & Fixed: AI soldiers were able to hear extremely well

Please confirm so we can also rule out other factors too

Updated by alef almost 6 years ago

  • Assignee set to alef

Updated by Stark almost 6 years ago

One small example.

Download the attached mission and check at what time the HMMWV will be found by the russian tanks. (It will be found at 5-10 sec.)
How much time would be spent on his search in RL?
(1.03.58627)

Updated by alef almost 6 years ago

  • File CIT_1701_2_Chernarus.sqm added
  • Due date changed from 08/20/2009 to 11/08/2009
  • Status changed from Feedback to Assigned
  • Assignee deleted (alef)
  • % Done changed from 0 to 10
  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.02.58134 to 1.03.58627

Updated by Dwarden almost 6 years ago

  • Status changed from Assigned to Resolved
  • Target version set to 1.03.58627
  • % Done changed from 10 to 100

original issue is considered resolved for any other issue please create new bug report or feature request

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

  • % Done changed from 100 to 50

Updated by Fireball almost 6 years ago

  • Status changed from Resolved to Closed

Updated by Fireball over 5 years ago

  • % Done changed from 50 to 100
  • Difficulty set to Not set

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