Support #16967

Issues with SD magazines

Added by SirBeaver about 4 years ago. Updated about 4 years ago.

Status:Closed Start date:01/25/2011
Priority:Low Due date:
Assignee:VKing % Done:

100%

Category:Config
Target version:1.10
Component: Affected Version:
Close Reason:

Description

1. Is it possible to set the SD magazines as defaults for the weapons with silencers?
What I mean is if I pick an M4 CCO SD it packs the normal 30rnd. STANAGs and I have to replace them manually.

2. Can you edit the config of the M110 so it can accept a silenced magazine?
It can load the normal Mk17 mag, but not the Mk17 SD mag which goes into the Mk17 Sniper SD and the Mk17 SD TWS.

Thanks in advance.

_ACE_SD_Test.Desert_E.7z (712 Bytes) Sickboy, 01/25/2011 19:28

History

Updated by Sickboy about 4 years ago

  • Category set to Config
  • Status changed from New to Assigned
  • Assignee set to VKing
  • Priority changed from Normal to Low
  • Target version set to 395

1. Normal magazines are supposed to exchange automatically for SD magazines in SD rifles, if that's not the case it should be bug.
2. M110 should indeed be able to take the SD mag, but also convert it to the right type based on the rifle (SD or non SD)

Updated by SirBeaver about 4 years ago

For me nothing converts except the MP5 mag. It says "Semi" when I load a normal mag and "Semi | SD" when I load a silenced one.
I tested it in the editor by shooting at AI.

1. SD M4, SD magazine: he just keeps wondering what is happening.
2. non-SD M4, SD magazine: same, he doesn't know where I am.
3. non-SD M4, normal STANAG: he finds me in 5 seconds, boom headshot.
4. SD M4, normal mag.: same, just like I wouldn't have a silencer attached.

At the M110SD no matter what ammo I shoot, they find me much faster compared to the time when I use a Mk17 SD battle rifle.

Updated by Sickboy about 4 years ago

If I start with an M4, exchange it for a M4SD in the init field of unit in editor, but leave the normal magazines,
after mission start my magazines are replaced to ACE_30Rnd_556x45_S_Stanag (by http://ace.dev-heaven.net/wagn/Magazines_System)

Not the case for you ? Please attach rpt

Updated by VKing about 4 years ago

Please be aware of the difference between a normal magazine fired by a suppressed weapon, and subsonic 'SD' magazines.
The system does not replace normal mags with 'SD' mags; it replaces normal mags with 'S' mags, which have the same muzzle velocity, but which in a metagaming sense are more difficult for the AI to hear.

SirBeaver wrote:

1. Is it possible to set the SD magazines as defaults for the weapons with silencers?
What I mean is if I pick an M4 CCO SD it packs the normal 30rnd. STANAGs and I have to replace them manually.

No, this won't be done because of the dysmal effectiveness of subsonic 556x45 ammunition. I'd rather have to manually pack mags to be extra stealthy than having to pack mags manually to be able to kill at ranges longer than spitting.

2. Can you edit the config of the M110 so it can accept a silenced magazine?
It can load the normal Mk17 mag, but not the Mk17 SD mag which goes into the Mk17 Sniper SD and the Mk17 SD TWS.

To my knowlegde, sniper rifles aren't buildt to fire subsonic ammo very well. Besides the fact that the scope isn't calibrated for subsonic ammunition, using low-velocity ammo with a long-range rifle doesn't sound very practical.
I'll look into it, but there's really no reason to use SD mags with the M110, or any sniper rifle for that matter.
Does the M110 and Mk17 even use the same kind of magazines IRL?

Updated by SirBeaver about 4 years ago

To be honest I did not know there are other special subsonic ammo's and mags than the SD magazines.
I only tested if the AI spots me or not. And if the normal magazines are automatically replaced by mags filled with subsonic ammo, my position still will be spotted. In my eye there is no difference between a normal M4 and an M4SD with subsonic mags for instance. Only SD mags make the desired difference.
And thats why I asked if it's possible to set the weapons to pick SD mags along with them. If it's not possible or you think it's good the way it is now, I will accept it of course.

But now to the other thing, the M110SD. I don't care about range, stopping power, I only want to be silent. It's kinda funny when I shoot a partol's machinegunner in the face from a concealed position, from 200 meters away and 5 seconds later I get a bullet in my face as a return.
(What would be the effective range of the M110 with silenced and subsonic ammo?)

About the M110 using Mk17 magazines: I looked around but couldn't find any 100% sure results. But I guess they are not compatible. Only in here. All M110s (ACE M110, ACE M110SD, M110NV, M110TWS) can load the normal Mk17 mag. Maybe this should be disabled as well.

But it is possible to create a new magazine making the M110SD silenced, right? Oh and yes. The TAC-50 has a silenced magazine for it.

Updated by Sickboy about 4 years ago

The SD Mags are the subsonic mags probably.
The mags that get replaced when switching to SD rifle are the supersonic variants.

This magazine should work with M110_SD, not sure if it's sub or super sonic; http://browser.dev-heaven.net/cfg_magazines/config/ACE_20Rnd_762x51_SB_S_SCAR

Updated by VKing about 4 years ago

The AI can still hear the cracks the supersonic bullets make in the air if you fire near them. I'm not sure how the AI reacts to that wrt knowing where you are compared to non-suppressed weapons.
However, the AI will not react if you're not firing at them. So if you fire at one group of AI, they'll react because they hear the cracks, while a different group of AI won't, but they would have heard you if you used a non-suppressed weapon.

The problem with the M110, specifically, is that I don't know if it's supposed to be able to use Mk17 magazines or not, but changing it so it doesn't will break missions since there are no M110 magazines in vanilla OA.

Updated by Sickboy about 4 years ago

I'd at least make it consistent then, and allow the SuperSonic 'silenced' mags to be used too if not already the case.

As to Subsonic; not every weapon can handle this... Any sources on M110 handling subsonic?

Updated by Sif about 4 years ago

Sickboy wrote:

I'd at least make it consistent then, and allow the SuperSonic 'silenced' mags to be used too if not already the case.

As to Subsonic; not every weapon can handle this... Any sources on M110 handling subsonic?

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/knights-armament-m110-308/

M110 handles subsonic just fine according to this. Even has a soft place for the M118LR.

Updated by VKing about 4 years ago

Can you quote me where it says that, I can't find any mention of subsonic ammunition in that article.

Updated by Sif about 4 years ago

VKing wrote:

Can you quote me where it says that, I can't find any mention of subsonic ammunition in that article.

Do 'Find' sub-sonic, isn't what I first read so there's nothing in there. Try this video, these dudes are shooting subsonic ammo in I am guessing either Iraq or Afghanistan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJL2yzryAYY

Updated by JBowles about 4 years ago

Sif wrote:

VKing wrote:

Can you quote me where it says that, I can't find any mention of subsonic ammunition in that article.

Do 'Find' sub-sonic, isn't what I first read so there's nothing in there. Try this video, these dudes are shooting subsonic ammo in I am guessing either Iraq or Afghanistan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJL2yzryAYY

Make note they are firing at targets only about 50M away, the rifle does not cycle, it is essentially a bolt action when using sub sonic ammo. The max range of subsonic .308 win is maybe 300-400m before the bullet drop is just too much to adjust for, verses the 1500m+ of supersonic ammo.

Subsonic 5.56 simply does not exist outside a few experimental ammo loads and frankly has no place in ACE. Subsonic 308 should have a cycle rate penalty. If you want subsonic ammo in game stick to the MP5SD, the Russian stuff in 9x39 or have someone work up a .300 AAC Blackout variant of an M4.

Attention should not be on sub sonic ammo but rather on how the AI responds to the super sonic crack of the bullet.

From the US Army's Human Engineering Laboratories'

Interm Operation and Maintenace Manual
Noise Suppressor Assembly, HEL M4
For use with Rifle 5.56mm M16A1

"Human beings determine the source of any noise by a sound locating process using both ears. Whether we are able to locate any sound depends in part on the loudness and duration of the sound and attentive we are during that duration. In locating the source of hostile fire, most soldiers are alerted by the ballistic crack and locate the source by the subsequent muzzle noise (in a similar manner to the "Crack and Thump" technique taught in the US Army).

However, with the M4..suppressor installed, the muzzle noise of "thump" is not heard. Persons who try to locate the position of the firer from the ballistic crack alone usually choose a direction perpendicular to the sound wave they hear. Therefore, as shown in figure 262, persons forward of the firer will either be confused as to the firer's location or they will located it incorrectly. Persons to the rear of the firers position should be able to locate accurately."

Fig.262

Full scan here from The Black Rifle
[[http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1702248/black%20rifle%20001.png]]

In short the ArmA AI need to be made to better mimic human behavior, they should not correctly located your position when firing a suppressed weapon unless they are behind you or very close.

Updated by rocko about 4 years ago

  • Tracker changed from Feature to Support

Updated by rocko about 4 years ago

  • Status changed from Feedback to Resolved
  • Target version changed from 395 to 1.10
  • % Done changed from 0 to 100

Updated by rocko about 4 years ago

  • Status changed from Resolved to Closed

Available in the about to be released ACE 1.10 RC 2 Hotfix 1, which probably is later to be announced as 1.10 Stable later this week, which is pretty acesome.

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