Feature #16782

Do not lower the Gun when looking at the map

Added by seany about 4 years ago. Updated almost 2 years ago.

Status:Assigned Start date:01/17/2011
Priority:Normal Due date:
Assignee:- % Done:

0%

Category:Animations
Target version:-
Affected ArmA II version:Please select... First affected ArmA II version:
Reproduced by another DH user:No Single / Multi Player?:
I am using some Mods:No BIForumURL:
I am using: NGUrl:
Reproducible for you:Yes WIKIurl:
Related to content of DLC:

Description

Why
In a game that already has a lot of controls and stances, that can feel clunky and awkward already.
Adding things like needing to raise your gun after looking at the map does not help.

It's taking things a bit too far.

Realism is not an argument here, or you could start to get really anal and ask:

why then don't I need to lower my gun before I can open the map?

Or

put my weapon on my back before I can get into a vehicle or heal someone?

Such requirements would be just as nonsensical.

All it does is make the game feel more clunky and less immersive,
your fighting to control some onscreen robot to do your biding rather than
feeling as a player in the game.

It's just a small easy change that can make the game feel and play a bit smoother.


Related issues

related to ARMA2 Community Issue Tracker - Feature #45746: Add additional key action to temporarily lower the weapon Assigned 09/07/2012

History

Updated by AGW-Grimes about 4 years ago

Personally I think this is fine. I real life you would not be able to unfold a map and hold it properly with one hand. And it's not like you have to double click Ctrl, then open map to open the map. Hit M, you go down (Maybe 0.5 sec?) then the map comes up, then when you close the map, you stand up. Click fire to have your gun come up. Seems realistic to me.

Updated by seany about 4 years ago

Your gun should come up automatically just as it lowers. It's pointless to force the player to raise his gun. I don't want to close the map, see an enemy and have to click twice to open fire. Also it can cause you to miss fire. It adds nothing to the game only detracts.

Updated by kju about 4 years ago

  • Tracker changed from Bug to Feature
  • Subject changed from Your Gun is lowered after using the map - This should not be to Do not lower the Gun when looking at the map
  • Status changed from New to Assigned
  • Operating system deleted (Vista 64 bit)
  • Graphics card deleted (gtx295)
  • Graphics card driver version deleted (160)
  • CPU deleted (q9650)
  • Mainboard chipset deleted (780i)
  • System RAM size deleted (4)
  • GPU VRAM size deleted (1)
  • Audio card deleted (xfi)
  • Size of OS swap file deleted (default)

Updated by kju about 4 years ago

Agreed. The anim is really hurting the gameplay a lot. Especially for beginners.

Updated by wore about 4 years ago

I think it's makes the game more realistic

Updated by RobertHammer about 4 years ago

I think its realistic - because in reality when you looking at map you will lower your gun - for example look at Vietcong 1 game

Updated by kju about 4 years ago

If you actually read the argument, it is that the game itself does not have this level of realism
in various other areas, nor does it add to it - in fact it hurts the playability!

Updated by Spyder001 about 4 years ago

Hmm, I always just press my forward key and my weapon comes back up. Never had any issues with it.

Updated by AGW-Grimes about 4 years ago

You're making it sound like "this level of realism" is like having shrapnel from grenades come through your computer screen.

Isn't the goal of this game to be as realistic as possible, while still maintaining the ideals and fundamentals of a game? Is running forward or double tapping or even single tapping a key or button such a big deal for that little bit of realism that makes strategizing in the field look more real and cinematic?

Updated by seany about 4 years ago

Actually, no it isn't. And we are not making a movie..and how is "Running forward" in anyway a realistic method of closing a map? The one way that I might be able to put up with this action is if the optics view command raised your gun, but it does not.

It is more important to immerse the player in the game and make them forget they are controlling an on screen character with a mouse and keyboard. You should not make the player perform small, intuitive actions in game that in real life you "just do". The game is supposed to be realistic but not at the expense of irritating the player and making them feel as though they are not in control and that is where I feel this action steps across the line. When I am in this situation I don't think "wow that is realistic" I think "why the F*ck cant I shoot?" then I remember I have to raise my gun. I real life, you take out your map, glance at it. You start taking fire...with that first crack the map is gone without even thinking about it and your gun is up looking for targets.

I have to ask Grimes, you would like the developers to implement the need to perform an action to lower your gun before you can open the map, or require you to put your gun away yourself before climbing a ladder, or getting in a vehicle, or building a mash tent or an mg nest? Do you think things like this would add to the immersion of play? Because that is essentially what you and everyone else who has voted this down is saying.

Realism is important, but not at the expense of ruining the players immersion and frustrating them. And I believe BIS know this and is why they don't force you to perform the above mentioned examples. I think that the "having to raise your gun anim" was an idea by one of the animators/programmers that just wasn't fully thought out and if they where to play the game as regularly as we(well me anyway)do they would change it.

Maybe you (and the others against this change) just don't play large online battles where you need to look at the map often around fire fights so don't appreciate what it is like. So I ask that you properly consider that before throwing around the old realism argument. The thing is, if this anim wasn't present you would not have a ticket on here requesting it would you?..because its pointless and would never be implemented.

Updated by Voyage34 about 4 years ago

If we want to talk about realism, in RL to take a map and look at it would require much more tume than the 0.5 sec the game requires you. And you shouldn't be able to run while looking at your map. And simultaneously using a compass and a gps. And not everyone should have a map (civs?).
You know, if we want to talk about realism, what we have now is not realistic. But I think that kneel every time you look at a map and put away for just a second your rifle a) is not so fatiguing and game-breaker as you said, and b) gives me the right immersion and the feeling I am really taking a map, and is not a magical-methaphysic map appearing from nowhere like in much other fps. As it is now it seems a good compromise to me. And so I vote no.
PS: don't know your idea of game-breaking, but there are so many other thing that should be fixed that really ruins the game (with all the rispect for BI's work, obviously), that having to click to raise the rifle after having looked at the map is really, really nothing.

Updated by seany about 4 years ago

I'm talking about realism, but not because I want more...I'm saying it's a fine balance that this action steps over, that's all. I personally would hate to have those other realism things you have mentioned. "And you shouldn't be able to run while looking at your map" ...we cant do this anyway.

b) "gives me the right immersion and the feeling I am really taking a map, and is not a magical-methaphysic map appearing from nowhere like in much other fps."
This makes no sense.. because what you describe above is exactly what is happening, it appears form nowhere like it always has done.....its when you close the map that the problem begins...How is having to raise your gun AFTER you have opened the map making you feel as though the map is not just appearing from no where?

Voyage34; I have to ask, if you like this extra action, you would also like to have BIS implement the need to lower your gun before pressing "M" to open the map? That's the kind of realism you are asking for here, which is just unnecessary.

I guess it also comes down the type of game you play. I play Domination a lot, I have to refer to the map often, mostly to avoid Friendly Fire. So this extra action after using the map becomes tiresome very quickly. OFP and Arma1 where fine without it, I doubt anyone even considered it as some thing to enhance realism back then.

I agree that there are lots of important things to fix. But to be honest, what they are addressing in the beta patches at the moment is not really any more important than this, for me anyway.

Updated by kraze almost 4 years ago

This is not a bug and should stay as it is.
You already take a map out and put it back at light speed. If forcing you to hold your weapon down and then forcing you to bring it up is the way to stop you from being some BF2 rambo warrior - then so be it.

I would've wished BIS slowed down map opening and closing - like a status bar that fills as at least 3-5 secs pass to open/close map

Updated by seany almost 4 years ago

They don't FORCE you to bring it down........that's the whole point!!!!
It is lowered automatically, you have to RAISE it manually. At least if they did force you to lower it before opening the map it would be consistent....

BF2 rambo warrior?..please try to have some kind of intelligence to your point. Was OFP a "BF2 rambo warrior" game? Was Arma1 a "BF2 rambo warrior" game? NO! and neither of these had this silly requirement of raising the gun after using the map!

And slowing down the map while opening? Do you know how many people complained in Arma1 about the length of time the map was taking to open? It was a major bug that was a priority for BIS to fix....and you want to bring it back as a feature? Way to nullify your opinion.

Jesus, you try and get some annoying over sight by BIS fixed and suddenly it turns into some kind of drum for the realism fan club to bang.

Updated by kju almost 4 years ago

seany with some people there is no use to discuss.
They paint the picture they want it no matter what.
It's called distorted reality.

IMHO its a major inconvenience and there is no good reason to have it.

Updated by PeterBitt almost 4 years ago

you would have my vote if the ticked was called "Raise gun automaticaly after looking at the map" that would do 100% sense to me.
But i realy dont want to miss the gun lowered & kneel position feature because it realy adds to immersion.
thats my point of view, no need to discuss with dramatic wording or saying i suffer from distorted reality.

Updated by seany almost 4 years ago

^ well obviously that would be fine by me too....the end result is the same. You make a good point about the animation. Maybe I wouldn't have gotten such a negative response if I had of worded it like that. I have no problem with the animation itself, I thought it was pretty clear now that it's the having to raise the weapon manually that is annoying.

Come to think of it, is this animation even visible for other players or is it just local?

Updated by kju almost 4 years ago

seany feel free to create a new ticket with better wording and we will close this one.

Updated by Voyage34 almost 4 years ago

""And you shouldn't be able to run while looking at your map" ...we cant do this anyway." yes you can. just press "m" while running without lifting your finger from the w key and when you'll close the map you will find yourself in another place. You can even sprint while looking at the map.

"b) "gives me the right immersion and the feeling I am really taking a map, and is not a magical-methaphysic map appearing from nowhere like in much other fps."
This makes no sense.. because what you describe above is exactly what is happening, it appears form nowhere like it always has done.....its when you close the map that the problem begins...How is having to raise your gun AFTER you have opened the map making you feel as though the map is not just appearing from no where?"

well, I'm not supposing I should see the paper of the map getting out of the pocket, opening, and this kind of details. It is not appearing from nowhere, because you have to wait some time before it opens, and you get yourself crouched, simulating the (virtual) opening of a map.
As for the AFTER, immersion is just a general feeling. It is not "1 sec: i'm immersed, next one: no more, next sec again: immersed again" just before or after opening the map. The order of things doesn't matter, I know that when i take out a map i will have to do certain things, and we can talk about them.
Having to click to raise your gun hurts, you're right, but IMO maybe it's there to avoid people to look continuously at the map without having to "pay" nothing for that. Ok, kneeling, but in most of the combat situation you described I suppose you were already kneeled down. That way a guy can shoot, look at the map, shoot again, look at the map, and shoot again, with an embarassing rate. Impossible things for a soldier.

I agree that there are lots of important things to fix. But to be honest, what they are addressing in the beta patches at the moment is not really any more important than this, for me anyway. well, I liked the AI improvement in recent betas, i liked some other things; i don't think these things are less important than the "after-map click".

Finally the "distorted reality" is not an argumentation. It's a stupid way to get out of things. We are here to discuss, and we have different opinions.
Or we can let the votes decide for us. You're actually at 0. Half of the people like your idea, half don't.

Updated by seany almost 4 years ago

Voyage34 wrote:

Having to click to raise your gun hurts, you're right, but IMO maybe it's there to avoid people to look continuously at the map without having to "pay" nothing for that. Ok, kneeling, but in most of the combat situation you described I suppose you were already kneeled down. That way a guy can shoot, look at the map, shoot again, look at the map, and shoot again, with an embarassing rate. Impossible things for a soldier.

Well there are lots of things that are impossible for a Real soldier that you can do in Arma, that's nothing new. And mostly it is down to player preference and how they want the difficulty settings. The shoot, look at the map, shoot again example has really got nothing to do with the current requirement to raise your gun manually after looking at the map. That's down to if the player has enemy unit icons on (which I never do tbh) and if they want to play like that...who cares. And the way to prevent it is not punish every other normal player by making them perform this action. If you want to prevent that, turn off Icons. The biggest pointer that the removal of this requirement will not suddenly ruin the game is that neither Operation Flashpoint or Arma1 had this and they where fine for it.

KJU wasn't far off with the Distorted reality remark...If you read what the guy wrote who triggered such a comment you would see that he wanted a 5 second delay before the map opens...you think this is a reasonable suggestion?

Also available in: Atom PDF