Bug #15293

The AI tank gunner should automatically switch to and use sabot/heat, even when a player is inside the vehicle.

Added by kju almost 5 years ago. Updated over 2 years ago.

Status:Assigned Start date:11/20/2010
Priority:Normal Due date:10/28/2011
Assignee:Dwarden % Done:

0%

Category:AI Issues
Target version:-
Affected ArmA II version:1.60.87580 First affected build:
Reproduced by another DH user:Yes First affected ArmA II version:
I am using some Mods:No Single / Multi Player?:
I am using:OA only BIForumURL:
Reproducible for you:Yes NGUrl:
Related to content of DLC: WIKIurl:

Description

Summary
Bottom line is the AI gunner should engage at will with all weapons systems,
unless he gets the hold fire command.
Only then he should require manual target assignment and fire order to engage.

Obs
When the player is SL while in a tank or commander of the tank,
the gunner only uses the MG to engage infantry at will.

  1. The AI gunner does not target vehicles.
  2. The AI gunner does not switch to sabot to engage vehicles himself.
  3. The AI gunner does not use sabot to engage vehicles by himself.
  4. The AI gunner does not switch to HE ammo to engage infantry.
  5. The AI gunner does not use HE ammo to engage infantry by himself.

It does not help switching to driver or crew position.
Only when you leave the vehicle the AI starts to act properly again.

Exp
Being inside a tank as commander or SL should not reduce the combat
effectiveness of the AI gunner - at least not as much.

More autonomous behavior for the AI gunner will not hurt the commander
role as he can still reveal targets, assign targets, command the gunner to fire.

Repro
  1. Load the attached mission in the editor
  2. Notice the AI gunner only use the MG vs light vehicles
  3. Notice the AI gunner not engage enemy armor nearby
  4. Notice that switching to driver seat does not help
  5. Notice that once you leave the vehicle, the gunner becomes capable again

TankCrewDoesNotEngage.Desert_E.7z (944 Bytes) kju, 11/20/2010 11:34


Related issues

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History

Updated by kju almost 5 years ago

  • Subject changed from Tank gunner does not automatically switch to and use sabot/heat when player inside vehicle. to The AI tank gunner does not automatically switch to and use sabot/heat when a player is inside the vehicle.

Updated by kju almost 5 years ago

This is also and especially a problem for jeeps.

When you the gunner of a jeep and switch seats,
the AI gunner will not engage no matter what weapon, no matter what target.

See #15293.

Updated by zGuba over 4 years ago

  • Due date changed from 02/01/2011 to 04/28/2011
  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.56 BETA to 1.57.76815

Updated by BigDawgKS about 4 years ago

What about AI tanks without player inside/in player's squad? I've never seen the AI ever switch ammo types on their own unless they ran out of one.

Updated by kju about 4 years ago

  • Due date changed from 04/28/2011 to 10/28/2011
  • Assignee set to Dwarden
  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.57.76815 to 1.60 BETA
  • CPU deleted (Please specify!)
  • Audio card deleted (Please specify!)
  • Size of OS swap file deleted (Please specify!)
  • Language deleted (Please set for missions)

Updated by Suma about 4 years ago

I think the behaviour you describe is by design. Once you are commanding a tank, you are responsible for changing weapons and deciding when to fire. See also http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?p=1990246#post1990246

Updated by BigDawgKS about 4 years ago

Indeed I agree with that, but the question I had was whehter or not AI commanded tanks will switch ammo when appropriate (AP against tanks, HE against infantry/soft targets). I haven't ever witnessed it.

Updated by zGuba about 4 years ago

Yeah, such change would improve the immersion and gameplay very much.

Imagine:
- BMP-2 engaging troops with HE munitions and armor with AP instantly,
- tanks using various types of shells against various types of targets,
- anti-material snipers prefering HE munitions against soft targets and AP against uparmored.

Updated by Fireball about 4 years ago

Hmm, the OP mentions explicitly the presence of a player, though - this should be rephrased maybe.

Updated by kju about 4 years ago

First off sorry BigDawgKS I have indeed misread the ticket.
I thought it was one about AI's inability to use secondary/multiple magazine types.
There is now a ticket for that one: #23017

Updated by kju about 4 years ago

Now in terms of this one:

While I can understand the goal trying to make the tank behavior realistic,
in my view the current state not good at all.

The main argument is like the malau in the forum points out that commanding
AI tanks is no fun at all in ArmA - it does not work well.

In OFP it worked somewhat better for these reasons:
  • (Heavy) Tanks were able to withstand 2-3 sabot hits - in ArmA mostly the first sabot disables the tank. See #15842, #12848, #3503.
  • As commander you had an additional cursor to assign targets. Especially with third person view that helped immensely. See #13218.
  • As crew you heard the impacts close or onto the tank. This is broken/disabled since arma. See #14775.
  • Even more the cursor was also in the radar box and made it possible to assign targets easily this way.
  • TAB/radar lock no longer works as strong in arma. The mechanics have changed a bit since arma. Good for PvP play, bad vs AI.
  • HEAT vs infantry is no longer as strong/useful as it used to be. See #1934.
  • New bugs introduced by arma: #12200, #13383.
There are some more issues with tank commanding in general:
  • AI is shooting beyond real viewable distance (as viewdistance/radar/locking distance is more). See #2671, #20189, #4852.
  • Commanding an AI driver is works not really well. Giving waypoints is OK, yet direct movement commands are not working well enough due to the delay, the AI driver bouncing ~10 degree when you stop giving him the turn command. All in all no fluent and meaningful driving during combat possible.
  • AI gunner commanded by a player starts firing only once the player has finished speaking the command. AI itself fires instantly.
I asked a few people how they use tanks due to the issues:
  • They only enjoy mission commanding a group of tanks as you essentially fall back with the "lead" tank and let the other AI only tanks do the job (advance).
  • You exit the tank, and run along as infantry as AI only tank is far more capable vs armored targets.
  • People play as driver as the AI often fails to drive properly, switch to the gunner themselves once in position/in danger, as one is a lot faster rather by commanding the AI gunner, switch to the commander to radar lock targets and switch back to gunner.
The bottom line for me is:
  • While even in OFP tanks missions were often frustrating, due the points above and the ability to repair the tank in most missions again, it was still fun.
  • Since arma tank commanding is only frustrating. If I have to use a tank, as described above I do all the jobs myself (driving, shooting) or leave the tank and let the AI do the job.
  • Ontop it seems the same root cause making AI gunners in cars not act. See #15308, #15307.

Updated by kju about 4 years ago

Forgot one aspect to mention:
Is it realistic that a tank gunner can engage infantry at will like it does in arma now?

I think it is very good that he does, but it shows that full realism is not desirable.

Updated by kju about 4 years ago

My suggestions would be:
  • For non armored vehicles, let the gunner act on his own
  • The player, as commander or group leader, can always notify (reveal and/or assign) the gunner targets in addition
  • At least when the gunner is on "engage at will", he should engage armored vehicles automatically
  • By default the gunner should also scan for armored vehicles by default and target them - but wait for the commander to give the fire order
  • Long term both with AI and human players the tank commander should paint/designate targets to the gunner - aka some visual indicator(s) to ease the target (I was told something along the line is realistic)

That aside for realism I guess one could also look into dedicated tank simulations and look how it is done there.

Updated by wore about 4 years ago

Personally I would like to see properly modelled crew roles: commander scanning the area for targets. Gunner only reports about spotted target to commander, but doesn't hit them by himself without order. When a target is spotted, commander gives it to gunner, and then returns to scanning. Gunner orders loader to load rounds, engaging the given targets, etc by himself.

Updated by Fireball about 4 years ago

  • Status changed from Assigned to Feedback
  • Assignee deleted (Dwarden)

Wore, what you describe sounds pretty much like it currently works. But I agree, to improve the OP, the ticket should be reforged into a feature ticket (according to Sumas feedback) with a description, that could look like crew job description.

The additional comments are huge, unstructured and will more likely be disregarded.

Updated by kju about 4 years ago

It is a bad or even buggy design, if a player being inside a vehicle,
tank or car, no matter as driver, commander or cargo, makes AI no longer
act appropriately.

The additional comments are all very helpful and crucial to describe the problem at hand.

Updated by Fireball about 4 years ago

Well, apparently it's by design, but it's bad design, so we usually call it a feature ticket.

Maybe, the issue is too bundled.

What I can see, though, is that the targeting instructions and firing might have to be done by the commander (and thus by the player assuming command position) can be considered by design, since the drivers' FOV of the gunner is too narrow to scan for vehicles effectively, at least this is the case for me as a player in the gunner position (makes you wonder why AI is able to target infantry with the MG so nicely, though).

  • BUT the fact that you can switch to the driver seat and AI Commander & Gunner become lazy is definitely a bug. If you could make a new ticket specific to this, I'm sure it would get more attention.
  • AI shooting beyond visible distance could be its own ticket too
  • Gunner should attack on its own when set to "Engage at will" could be its own ticket

Updated by Vipera about 4 years ago

Usually, when I command tank as a commander I tell my gunner to switch to MG. In this case he attacks infantry and cars by his MG automatically. This is better than nothing but as kju said, there is something wrong with commanding of tanks. Another problem, you cannot tell your AI gunner to hit target by guided missiles (Refleks in T-90) because you cannot select target for him when gunner has guided missile selected. So, commanding of tanks is so annoying right now.

Updated by Fireball over 3 years ago

  • Tracker changed from Bug to Feature
  • Subject changed from The AI tank gunner does not automatically switch to and use sabot/heat when a player is inside the vehicle. to The AI tank gunner should automatically switch to and use sabot/heat, even when a player is inside the vehicle.
  • Status changed from Feedback to Assigned

Transforming into feature ticket, it's clear to me that described behavior was always by design until now.

Updated by seany over 3 years ago

I like the current method of AI auto engaging with the MG against infantry but awaiting commander ( or effective commanderincargo) instruction to switch weapon and use the main gun. The Ai are not good enough/you cant communicate with them like you would a human crew to give them this much power/autonomous behaviour when a human is in the vehicle.

I disagree with this game play change

Interesting to note that this feature request/change has been partially added/shoe horned into the game by means of this bad bug fix: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/2353 , even though we agree the original method is by design....

Updated by kju over 3 years ago

  • Assignee set to Dwarden
  • Affected ArmA II version changed from 1.60 BETA to 1.60.87580

In fact it is a bug and was not intentional behavior.

This is shown clearly by both Suma's comment in BIF and that a seemingly completely unrelated fix
brought back the original design back from OFP.

Updated by Fireball over 3 years ago

  • Tracker changed from Feature to Bug

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