Feature #11364

Increase Stopping Power for Pistols

Added by tolko_download over 4 years ago. Updated about 4 years ago.

Status:Closed Start date:06/20/2010
Priority:Normal Due date:
Assignee:Sandiford % Done:

100%

Category:Config
Target version:1.7
Component:sys_wounds Affected Version:
Close Reason:

Description

ARMA 2 version: 1.05 (non-beta)
ACE 2 version: 1.2.0.369
MODS RUNNING: CBA, ACE, ACEX, ACEX_SM (v1.1), ACEX_PLA

SUMMARY: I think we should increase base hit damage for 9x18, 9x19 and especially .45 ACP calibers. All of these pistolet rounds have bad armor piercing ability due bullet form, but very good stopping power. The parts of a body not protected by armor are very vulnerable for these rounds, especially "mini big-gun" .45 caliber pistols. .45 - 1 shoot - 1 kill, 9x19 about 2 shots, 9x18 (not P 9x18!) 2-4 shots to unprotected body parts.

Pistols, MP5 and other guns (sub-MACHINE ;) guns) using pistol rounds will more effective at close combat vs. assault.

You can check http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm and calculate Thornily Stopping Power and Relative Penetration Calculator for each bullet and compare it with another rounds.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-176672.html

Now we have very weak and unusable pistols, unusable MP5 (M4 or any 5.56/5.45 gun is much-much better), only 1911 can something do, but if your enemy is unskilled :)

Thanks for attention :)

STEPS TO REPRODUCE: Use any 9x18/9x19/.45 ACP pistol/SM gun to hit other player/AI. Hit different parts for comparing.

DESIRED RESULT: Magazines shouldn't disappear.

CfgAmmo.hpp - sys_wounds\CfgAmmo.cfg 2010-10-31 (4.4 kB) Sandiford, 10/31/2010 14:41

fnc_hd2.sqf - sys_wounds\fnc_hd2.sqf 2010-10-31 (17 kB) Sandiford, 10/31/2010 14:41

fnc_ha.sqf - sys_wounds\fnc_ha.sqf 2010-10-31 (1.2 kB) Sandiford, 10/31/2010 14:41

CfgAmmo.hpp - sys_wounds\cfgAmmo.hpp 2010-11-03 (4.5 kB) Sandiford, 11/03/2010 15:46


Related issues

related to A.C.E. for OA - Feature #15314: Health system Duplicate 11/21/2010

Associated revisions

Revision 9a8e432b
Added by Sickboy over 4 years ago

~ FIXED: USMC_Soldier_Light was configured for having a helmut. refs #11364

Revision 7188e01a
Added by Sickboy over 4 years ago

~ CHANGED: Improved penetration model; better body armour calcs and over penetration is taken into account. Damage is now a combination of blood loss [penetration depth * calibre] and energy dissipated in the target. By Sandiford. refs #11364

Revision a4c5088c
Added by Sickboy over 4 years ago

Updated caliber settings by Sandiford. refs #11364

History

Updated by q1184 over 4 years ago

That's with the ACE wounding system enabled I presume?

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

  • Status changed from New to Assigned
  • Assignee changed from q1184 to Xeno
  • Target version deleted (Planned (Needs Contributors))
  • Component set to sys_wounds

Updated by tolko_download over 4 years ago

q1184
Any. In both mode - with and without Wounding System. Also, you can see weak pistol rounds in vanilla ArmA too. In most cases you must hit 50-150% of your PM/M9 magazine to kill someone at very close distance < 10m. Some bullets doesn't hit target due "native" dispersion, some - aim mistakes, some of "human" factor (after runing or crouching/standing).

If you set additional Armor at low difficulty level... pistol hits like mosquito's a sting :D

You can recreate situation in all cases on Human players:

1. Vanilla ArmA 1.05 (non-beta)
2. ACE any version <= b369 with/without Wounds
3. ACE any version <= b369 with/without Revive

Also AI players affected it :) Man with pistol in most cases have low chance versus assault rifleman - distance between mans < 10 meters, pistolman see torse, pistolman shoot earlier than rifleman, pistolman is more skilled than rifleman.

Sorry for english, I hope you understand me :)

Updated by Sandiford over 4 years ago

tolko_download wrote:

q1184
Any. In both mode - with and without Wounding System. Also, you can see weak pistol rounds in vanilla ArmA too. In most cases you must hit 50-150% of your PM/M9 magazine to kill someone at very close distance < 10m. Some bullets doesn't hit target due "native" dispersion, some - aim mistakes, some of "human" factor (after runing or crouching/standing).

If you set additional Armor at low difficulty level... pistol hits like mosquito's a sting :D

You can recreate situation in all cases on Human players:

1. Vanilla ArmA 1.05 (non-beta)
2. ACE any version <= b369 with/without Wounds
3. ACE any version <= b369 with/without Revive

Also AI players affected it :) Man with pistol in most cases have low chance versus assault rifleman - distance between mans < 10 meters, pistolman see torse, pistolman shoot earlier than rifleman, pistolman is more skilled than rifleman.

Sorry for english, I hope you understand me :)

Vanilla and wounds damage is based on different values, so i'll consider them seperately

-Vanilla
Using a PM, 2 shots to the torso normally kills even through body armour - plenty powerful enough

-Wounds
Due to things like overpenetration not being modelled, rifles do too much damage in some cases. to make rifles work right overall damage is lowered meaning pistols get shafted somewhat. When I can improve the damage model some more pistols/SMGs will do more damage, though they'll never be good weapons for a conventional battlefield.

Updated by rocko over 4 years ago

  • Target version set to 1.3

Updated by Lazyman over 4 years ago

This can also be seen with the 9x39mm SP-6 bullets fired by the VSS Vintorez and the AS Val: in real life, they generate a lot of shock and are designed to provide superior penetration within the range these guns were designed to be employed (100m<), and maintaining good power and penetration up to around 200m.
At the moment, with the ACE Wounding System enabled, it takes around 5 to 7 shots to the torso to down an Insurgent (who should not have any form of advanced body protection), from almost point-blank range.

Updated by Sandiford over 4 years ago

Lazyman wrote:

This can also be seen with the 9x39mm SP-6 bullets fired by the VSS Vintorez and the AS Val: in real life, they generate a lot of shock and are designed to provide superior penetration within the range these guns were designed to be employed (100m<), and maintaining good power and penetration up to around 200m.
At the moment, with the ACE Wounding System enabled, it takes around 5 to 7 shots to the torso to down an Insurgent (who should not have any form of advanced body protection), from almost point-blank range.

I can kill unarmoured targets (civis, insurgents) in 1-2 shots. Affected version, Repro steps or sample mission?

Updated by conKORD over 4 years ago

Did you do it in MP shooting to player?

Updated by Lazyman over 4 years ago

conKORD wrote:

Did you do it in MP shooting to player?

It was on MP against enemy AIs.
However it has been a while (1-2 weeks) since I've had the chance to use a Val again, so my informations might be outdated due to modifications to the wounding system in the current version.

Updated by Sandiford over 4 years ago

best way to check is to open up the editor, place a playble unit, ammo box and a target (unarmed or on the same side makes it easier).

Test it on veteran or above and it shouldn't be any different in MP/agaisnt players, atleast it hasn't been in my experience.

Updated by mr.g-c over 4 years ago

I disagree to some extent - at least with the wounding system enabled.

I have been studying wounding behavior/capability for some time during ACE1 times for its (still superior) wounding system. In RL 9mm Bullets, especially common FMJ have close to NO stopping power at all. Thats why there is still this controversy about the Armies replaced the Colt 1911 in 45 ACP with the 92FS/M9 in 9mm, a lot of people in combat have had bad results with the M9 in 9mm. One famous case in which a middle-eastern insurgent ran up a hill and a soldier had to unload his whole magazine into the guy to stop him.... Thats not what i call stopping power.
Different and sad, but still very actual case is in germany with Timothy Eisenberg. This guy, according to Police, still turned around and ran with a knife towards the police, even after they unloaded 7 rounds+ in his back! Also 9mm FMJ here @Police

Also there are people registered (like famous rap stars - 2Pac for instance, or People from Drug wars in Brazilian Slums) who survived at least 12+ hits from 9mm Rounds, so its not really some sort of killer caliber. Sure you will bleed badly and sooner or later die with no help, especially when hit in important organs, not to speak about direct head shots, but thats all about it.

For .45ACP however i do agree! Stopping power is really big there and the wounds it creates are tremendous!
In a extendet wounding system, the guy should collapse alone (like it was with ACE1 @Xeno :-) ) from the hit and the pain and after a short blackout of some seconds should regather consciousness lying on Ground (Nice Blur effects like with backbalst), but with heavy bleeding and actual damage (in Armas world) applied to him.

Updated by PeaceDoctor over 4 years ago

With the ACE wounding system a single shot from a pistol (I tried the Glock17/M1911/P226) or the MP5 does not kill a soldier (not wearing a helmet, I used the "unarmed" soldier default OPFOR). But it does kill a civilian.
Both are killed instantly without the ACE wounding system. Distance: <10m.

Updated by Sandiford over 4 years ago

PeaceDoctor wrote:

With the ACE wounding system a single shot from a pistol (I tried the Glock17/M1911/P226) or the MP5 does not kill a soldier (not wearing a helmet, I used the "unarmed" soldier default OPFOR). But it does kill a civilian.
Both are killed instantly without the ACE wounding system. Distance: <10m.

Assuming you're shooting them in the head -

unarmed soldiers (USMC_Soldier_Light, RU_Soldier_Light) configs aren't right atm, they act like they have helmets

class HitPoints: HitPoints  {
  class HitHead: HitHead {
    armor = 0.85;

should be:

class HitPoints: HitPoints  {
  class HitHead: HitHead {
    armor = 0.6;

Shoot them in the face (back or sides hits the helmet) and they should be the same as civis

Updated by PeaceDoctor over 4 years ago

Sandiford wrote:

PeaceDoctor wrote:

With the ACE wounding system a single shot from a pistol (I tried the Glock17/M1911/P226) or the MP5 does not kill a soldier (not wearing a helmet, I used the "unarmed" soldier default OPFOR). But it does kill a civilian.
Both are killed instantly without the ACE wounding system. Distance: <10m.

Assuming you're shooting them in the head -

unarmed soldiers (USMC_Soldier_Light, RU_Soldier_Light) configs aren't right atm, they act like they have helmets

[...]

should be:
[...]

Shoot them in the face (back or sides hits the helmet) and they should be the same as civis

Yes I did shoot them both in the head: they fall to the ground blood on their face only.
Back of the head for the unarmed soldier, facing for the civilian. So yes it works fine when shooting the unarmed soldier in the face.

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

  • Target version changed from 1.3 to 1.5 (OA)

Updated by Xeno over 4 years ago

  • Target version changed from 1.5 (OA) to 1.6

Updated by Spyder001 over 4 years ago

2 pistol shots in the body armor isn't going to kill anyone.... Kevlar + plates can take anything from 7.62 and down. Even after the plates "fail" they still stop rounds.

Updated by PeaceDoctor over 4 years ago

Spyder001 wrote:

2 pistol shots in the body armor isn't going to kill anyone.... Kevlar + plates can take anything from 7.62 and down. Even after the plates "fail" they still stop rounds.

But you are assuming the bullets will hit exactly the strongest point of the body armour. Unfortunately in real life this is not the case. That is why even with the best gear soldier many soldiers leave the battlefield in a body bag.

The average Joe is not dumb. He can clearly see the most flexible parts of a body armour are not most vulnerable.

So I think the idea here is not to make some kind of super armour allowing you to whitstand a barrage of bullets wherever the bullet goes in the body (whatever the caliber is) but to balance the thing so it can reflect in-game the vulnerabilities of the system.

Updated by rocko over 4 years ago

  • Tracker changed from Task to Feature

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

  • Status changed from Assigned to In progress
  • % Done changed from 0 to 60

Sandiford wrote:

PeaceDoctor wrote:

With the ACE wounding system a single shot from a pistol (I tried the Glock17/M1911/P226) or the MP5 does not kill a soldier (not wearing a helmet, I used the "unarmed" soldier default OPFOR). But it does kill a civilian.
Both are killed instantly without the ACE wounding system. Distance: <10m.

Assuming you're shooting them in the head -

unarmed soldiers (USMC_Soldier_Light, RU_Soldier_Light) configs aren't right atm, they act like they have helmets

[...]

should be:
[...]

Shoot them in the face (back or sides hits the helmet) and they should be the same as civis

Corrected these, anything else left?

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

  • Status changed from In progress to Feedback
  • Assignee changed from Xeno to Sandiford
  • Target version changed from 1.6 to 395

Moving this to planned until feedback

Updated by Sandiford over 4 years ago

Updated damage algorithms:

Damage is now a combination of blood loss [penetration depth * calibre] and energy dissipated in the target.
The blood loss is the major factor for intermediate * full sized rifle rounds and pistol rounds, while energy is significant for 12.7mm and above.

The penetration model is also improved, meaning better body armour calcs and over penetration is taken into account for damage. Soft body armour + helmet is (still) modelled for anyone with armour according to configs.

Of course damage is still hitpoint based, fixing that is for later.

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

Awesome, thanks! Will await applying post 1.6 for testing etc.

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

  • Target version changed from 395 to 1.7

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

  • % Done changed from 60 to 80

Implemented. One thing though; ace_caliber will be 0 for everything except bullets based on BulletBase.
Is that a problem (for shells/missiles/grenades etc)?

Updated by tolko_download over 4 years ago

I hope new system will work properly, because we (otstrel.ru) and some players including me played at Tushino (PvP based server with hardcored tactics and ~100 online) are tired from weak gun power like in Call of Duty, especially pistols, bolt-rifle sniper systems like M24 where you have one shot - one chance. For example it is one of old movies at build 373 http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=LWkP0uoTxQ8&feature=related IT WAS EPIC FAIL for .45 USP and Wounding system.

Thank you very much Dev Team. We need to test new damage system for feedback :)

Updated by tolko_download over 4 years ago

del it (miss posting)

Updated by Sandiford over 4 years ago

Sickboy wrote:

Implemented. One thing though; ace_caliber will be 0 for everything except bullets based on BulletBase.
Is that a problem (for shells/missiles/grenades etc)?

Would be a good idea to set some defaults :)

ace_caliber is used for anything non explosive, I think the only non explosive shell/grenade/rocket ammo are sabots/AP shells, though even they are configed as explosive (explosive = 0.05, I think it is to make it throw people into the air). If there is an ammo type that needs ace_caliber but doesn't have it, there will be an error in rpt and no damage done.
________________________________________________________________

I hope new system will work properly, because we (otstrel.ru) and some players including me played at Tushino (PvP based server with hardcored tactics and ~100 online) are tired from weak gun power like in Call of Duty, especially pistols, bolt-rifle sniper systems like M24 where you have one shot - one chance. For example it is one of old movies at build 373 http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=LWkP0uoTxQ8&feature=related IT WAS EPIC FAIL for .45 USP and Wounding system.

Thank you very much Dev Team. We need to test new damage system for feedback :)

Well in that video the player fired a pistol at body armour, the result would be the same with these changes. If you hit an unarmoured part of the body pistols will now do similar damage to an assault rifle.

Overall Damage is more complicated, currently you can be wounded which is easily healed or dead, and it is based on hitpoints. Damage can't be realistic until we can handle damage in a new way.
________________________________________________________________

Any idea why i'm getting emails saying things I can't see in this ticket?

e.g.

Issue #11364 has been updated by tolko_download.

Where is I can find exact values for "penetration", "caliber" and "energy" factors?

In some weapon configs I can see "caliber", "hit" and "ace_hit" parameters, but not in all. Maybe ACE uses own weapon config in other files than config.bin?

wounds uses velocity (worked out when the bullet hits based on "hit" and "typicalSpeed"), mass ("ace_mass") and calibre ("ace_caliber")
mass and calibre are defined in sys_wounds\cfgAmmo.hpp

things like penetration and energy are derived from these base values

best way to examine various ammo is to use http://browser.dev-heaven.net/cfg_ammo/classlist
select an ammo type, click config, then click full and you'll all of that ammo's properties

Updated by Sickboy over 4 years ago

Most probably because they removed their post.
Thanks for the updated CfgAmmo.hpp, implemented :)

Updated by Sandiford over 4 years ago

  • Status changed from Feedback to Closed
  • % Done changed from 80 to 100

Updated by rye about 4 years ago

Increased for MP5 family too? 9mm after all. I've been known to put a mag into someone on a PvP before they have died. AI alone take too many rounds.

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