Bug #10899

G force blackout problem persists

Added by Giap almost 5 years ago. Updated almost 5 years ago.

Status:Closed Start date:05/29/2010
Priority:Normal Due date:06/23/2010
Assignee:Xeno % Done:

100%

Category:Complex
Target version:1.3
Component:sys_g_effects Affected Version:
Close Reason:

Description

The blackout problem is still a major problem and hasn't been resolved. Reproducing the bug is fairly easy since it happens in almost any situation while airbourne. You can be flying at low speed,straight and it can occur or it can happen in the C-130 while banking softly to either side. The real issue is the total randomness of the bug, although i've heard that it could be related to the JTD mod i tried disabling it but to no avail, the problem still persisted.

I checked Dev for any feedback and saw that it WAS indeed a known problem but i see that the ticket is now closed and no further action is being taken, hence my new ticket to let you guys know that it still is a problem that renders fixed wing aircrafts almost completely useless due to the severity of this blackout problem.

P.S problem has occured in several versions up untill the latest

arma2.RPT (2 MB) Giap, 06/02/2010 13:22

arma2.RPT (2 MB) Tweet, 06/07/2010 17:27

arma2.RPT (21.3 kB) Giap, 06/11/2010 13:34

ace2_test_C130_hard_bank.utes.rar - Slight Blackout (951 Bytes) ViperMaul, 06/17/2010 17:14


Related issues

related to A.C.E. for OA - Task #11052: Script Performance measuring Closed 06/07/2010

Associated revisions

Revision 635601b8
Added by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

Preparation of module to disable g-effects on pilots. refs #10899

Revision fb8c806f
Added by Xeno almost 5 years ago

g effects calculations now completely done in FSM conditions (unscheduled), still a little bit WIP, refs #10899

Revision 184d24ac
Added by Xeno almost 5 years ago

~FIXED: g effects code is now run inside non scheduled environment, fixes #9097, #10899

History

Updated by Tweet almost 5 years ago

I have experienced the same problem, there is no way to avoid blackouts simply because they are as random as they can be.
After doing a barrel roll while coming down from 4000m to 1000m @ speed well above 600 and leveling it instantly I didnt blackout, when I went in for landing in a straight line with speed of about 250 I did black out.
There is no real way of describing a method of reproducing it other than flying about an hour or so and the random blackout should occur.

Updated by rocko almost 5 years ago

  • Priority changed from High to Normal

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

  • Category set to Complex
  • Status changed from New to Assigned
  • Assignee set to Xeno
  • Target version set to 1.2
  • Component set to sys_g_effects

Might be good to disable the system for the time being, enableable by module, until the issues are sorted?

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

  • Target version changed from 1.2 to 1.5 (OA)

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

  • Status changed from Assigned to Feedback

No. No need to disable it as we get only reports from a few people.

What's still missing is:

Mission played
Addons used
RPT files
What soldier class

I flew allmost an hour lately and had no problems at all. Specially not the problems described above.

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

  • Priority changed from Normal to Low

Updated by Daniel almost 5 years ago

Can we get confirmation from the reporters that they were playing as Pilot class?

Updated by Giap almost 5 years ago

you can get update on the class we joined with, it is pilot class but it doesnt matter coz it occurs almost as frequent IN the pilot class as in regular infantry

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

As long as I don't get more information like I have written above you won't get any help.

Updated by Cleric2145 almost 5 years ago

Just because not everybody is reporting this you think it isn't a big deal? This ruins large unite events when the pilots are incapacitated because of a bug that could be easily fixed by flipping a couple switches and making it a module. Perhaps people weren't reporting it because it has already been noted by the developers and they are waiting for an eventual fix?

I apologize if I sound angry, but the dev team seems bent on keep this game-breaking 'feature' forced onto everybody with no method of disabling it short of turning off ACE.

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

  • Target version changed from 1.5 (OA) to 1.3

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

Cleric2145 wrote:

Just because not everybody is reporting this you think it isn't a big deal? This ruins large unite events when the pilots are incapacitated because of a bug that could be easily fixed by flipping a couple switches and making it a module. Perhaps people weren't reporting it because it has already been noted by the developers and they are waiting for an eventual fix?

I apologize if I sound angry, but the dev team seems bent on keep this game-breaking 'feature' forced onto everybody with no method of disabling it short of turning off ACE.

Well yea, maybe people should give us the details we ask for, instead of having to ask for the details 5 times and not getting them. Help us help yourself!
We need:

Other than that, anything is changeable in Arma, for example with an override config. Don't blame us for your shortcomings.

I apologize if I sound angry, but it's getting pretty tiresome. A user-base that wants everything solved, but doesn't give us the information we need to solve, and then blame us/get angry; it mustn't get more crazy.
If people want it solved, they'll provide the information. Otherwise they don't want it solved, simple as that isn't it?

Updated by rocko almost 5 years ago

On a sidenote, not everything has to be switchable, Cleric2145. And we don't want to make everything switchable.

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

This is the set of addons used btw; http://updater.dev-heaven.net/queryservers/show/223 (Yea, quite nuts to have to look that up :))
First thing to stop using probably is JTD, afaik this one causes pretty big scripting delays.
Makes me wonder though if we could somehow account better for them bloody delays..

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

Sickboy wrote:

Makes me wonder though if we could somehow account better for them bloody delays..

No we can't.

Makes me wonder why somebody uses client side addons on a dedicated server (like STHUD and JTD).

But, still no nothing. So nothing happens.

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

Easier to keep the signatures up2date with the updater :P

Updated by Darkhorse almost 5 years ago

I've also had this bug in the pilot class (USMC > Men > Pilot, don't know classname) while flying any fixed wing aircraft, from any side, while using ACE2 and Duala, on several different versions of Domination, as well as custom missions. It's completely random, and has caused me to stop flying on ACE servers. Even the C-130 does it, which has caused the AC-130 to crash because the pilot blacked out. Several of my clanmates have had this as well.

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

rpt file please

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

  • Due date set to 06/03/2010

Updated by Giap almost 5 years ago

i have an rpt file but i get an error when i try to upload it mission was on pantera and mission generator used was mcc v_11 i joined as pilot if you guys need the aforementioned "classname" then i need to know where to look for that so i can relay it to you

Updated by Giap almost 5 years ago

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

Well, all I can say is get rid of JTD Fire and Smoke.

Fire and Smoke runs a script for each unit on the map which does some very expensive operations thus leaving no time for other scripts to run or do their calculations (beside the other script errors it causes in your rpt file).

And you should fix your ACE userconfig ;)

Oh, and check your other addons too. Some more errors in there which might also influence overall performance and lead to problems.

So try without them and tell me if you still have problems.

Updated by Sidewinder almost 5 years ago

Do you seriously think that because you don't get a few hundred responses that it's not a widescale problem? maybe 1% of all players ever report a bug to the main app let alone an addon. My entire squad has noticed this and has bitched and moaned about it and it needs to get fixed/disabled or whatever.

I've had blackouts last 5 minutes, in level flight at a 10 degree pitch at 350 knots. , I've had blackouts at a 15% bank at 200 knots with no elevator input. It's broken, and needs to be scaled back immensely, removed or allow us to modify the effect.

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

So, Mr. Sidewinder, like allways:

- mission played
- RPT file (client and if possible server too)
- Soldier class

We are not able to reproduce the problems you are facing with ACE only and no other custom addons used.

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

  • Due date changed from 06/03/2010 to 06/09/2010

Sidewinder wrote:

My entire squad has noticed this and has bitched and moaned about it and it needs to get fixed/disabled or whatever.

Clearly it isn't a big enough problem. No RPT, mission, used addons, reports of trying to disable other mods to see if it is a compatibility issue, nothing.

Ticket will be expired after the new due-date unless requested information and testing is provided; the ball's in your court: http://ace.dev-heaven.net/wagn/Bug_Reporting

Updated by Sidewinder almost 5 years ago

Addons used:@cba;@ace;@acex;@acex_sm;@acex_pla updated daily agaisnt kelly's heroes Yoma addonsync, that's it
Always using a pilot class, and happenes on everything from domination 2 to custom local Utes maps with me in a pilot class, a plane, any plane and a couple empty tanks for target practice.

I have no idea what you mean by RPT file. And it is a mistake to assume that it's not a big problem because not everyone has the time to submit a report, knows where to submit a report or how to submit a report.

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

  • % Done changed from 0 to 20

Nobody is assuming anything. Let's stick to the technicalities.
Thanks for the details.
RPT file is explained in the link I gave above, however here it is directly from the BIKI: http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/RPT
Please also supply your custom local utes map with you in a pilot class, so we have a single point of reference.

Also, after Monday's 1.2.0 RC1 release there will be an experimental prototype included of script performance diagnostics.
Once available it would be great if those who experience the issues, run it and share the results.
Will provide details by then.

Updated by Tweet almost 5 years ago

sorry i didnt upload sooner, had some other stuff going on
today I did some testing with the editor so I didnt use MCC and I didnt blackout at all
so might be a compatibility issue like mentioned here before

I have attached the RPT file if you still want to have a look at it

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

  • Assignee changed from Xeno to Sickboy
  • Priority changed from Low to High
  • % Done changed from 20 to 40

Thanks Tweet.
Now that v1.2.0 RC1 is out, there is a pbo included with CBA, in the main @CBA folder called: "cba_diagnostic_enable_perf_loop.pbo"
If you could add that to the @CBA\Addons folder, and try both the normal mission, and the MCC mission, and attach the new rpt again, we could at least determine if it is in any way related to scripting performance, or another issue.
Please let the mission run for at least 15 more seconds after testing is done, to make sure all log entries are written to rpt.

Updated by Tweet almost 5 years ago

I dont have time to do that today or tomorrow but I will do some proper testing on wednesday evening
will try to save different rpt files with different mods activated, perhaps that helps to narrow down the compatibility issue :)

Updated by Giap almost 5 years ago

regarding the many errors of my rpt, i've now disabled the JTD amongst many reasons it was said to affect the blackout problem so its now disabled, i will try an update the ace keys and then send you guys another rpt to see if it alters anything.

So far i can say that i still suffer from random blackouts (BO), random in the sense that its not where you should normally expect a BO but another rpt is incoming to you asap when all test parameters have been changed

regards N.G

P.S as the warmblooded sidewinder mentioned its a lot of guys suffereing from this not only me and tweet :)

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

Cheers.
As Tweet pointed out, he can't reproduce the issue when just in an editor mission, when playing with MCC for example, it starts to break.
So it seems like a script-performance or incompatibility issue.
I believe we can get quickest and best result when posting results while using the CBA diagnostics enabled addon: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/10899#note-29

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

  • Priority changed from High to Normal

Updated by Giap almost 5 years ago

Ok last update on the testing;

@everyone
"I found the problem with the blackouts and it's nothing to do with MCC (eat you hats guys).
It's ACE and BIS.
BIS modules Ambient civilians, Weather, Ambient civilians cars and garbage collector. are the ones that are making those random BO.

I deleted those on MCC map and no problem. I opened an editor made a new mission and added me as a pilot and 1 harrier and those modules and I had a blackout while flying straight.

I assume that while flying straight the BIS engine have to quickly add units and cars inside towns when you get close and then remove them when you fly away. So this I assume is causing a script freeze that make a blackout because of the 1/10 second interval in ace function.

So either we disable the modules or ACE fix their functions."

this is my m8 shay_gman that conducted a series of tests isolating the problem to the aforementioned modules
his rpt is following shortly

regards N.G

Updated by Giap almost 5 years ago

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

We can't fix what isn't broken, ask BIS to fix the civilian module (or add any other module/script/addon here which screws up the scripting engine).

I think we can close this ticket now. Doesn't make sense to keep it open any longer.

Updated by Giap almost 5 years ago

imo it makes a lot of sense to get to the bottom of a problem that apparently affects many ppl. I think that disabling the blackout effect would be a move to consider since its a tad easier than asking BIS to change some core feature in ArmA 2.

Because to say that there isn't a problem with blackouts is to neglect a big segment of your everyday users of ACE and ArmA 2
so we're a lot of guys that had hoped for some kind of fix to this very annoying problem.

thx in advance N.G

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

It doesn't affect many people!

Otherwise you would read many more complaints.
The only complaints we get is from people that use badly designed/implemented scripts/addons/modules.

We have put a lot of effort into ACE (and that also means a lot of time) to avoid such problems (including many hours of optimizing each single part of ACE).

Question, why should we add something to disable a system which is working perfectly well ?

Btw, scripts that screw up the scripting engine do not only affect the g force script (it's just one where it is obvious when you fly a plane) but it also affects other systems we use in ACE and, if you use other addons beside ACE, it affects those addons too.

Updated by shay_gman almost 5 years ago

Xeno I really apritate the efforts and all the great work ACE team have done and doing. It's amazing.
But put praize aside it's comes down to one of the two:
1. Either we stop using BIS modules thats adds alot to the game play as ambient civilians and cars.
2. or we'll have to live with the blackouts since discarding ACE isn't an option.

It's a problame of script processing when there are a lot to process and the interver "sleep o.o1" is very very (to say the list) tight in a MP enviorment.
So what we are asking as it appear to affect many and not just as (if it got to Kelly's hero)is give as the players a chance to choose what we prefer from the above.
add an option to disable G force's effect just like you can disable/enable crosshairs.

It's a great script the G-force effects but when you try using it in overcrowded enviorment it fails to serve it purpose.

Regards
Shay

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

I would agree to the compromise of having a module to disable the effects on pilots, so that the effects remain for non-pilots regardless..
How about that?

In the meantime we're working hard on trying to narrow down the exact problem makers (in- and outside ace), but we'll need feedback about it aswell, like the cba_diagnostics addon mentioned some posts above.

Updated by shay_gman almost 5 years ago

That sounds great.

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

  • Assignee changed from Sickboy to Xeno
  • % Done changed from 40 to 50

I've added a preparation for it, however i'm waiting for Xeno to hear his opinion first.

Updated by Giap almost 5 years ago

we would be more than happy to help supplying info to you guys if needed sounds like a great compromise you're proposing sickboy

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

If you add an option to remove the effects for pilots then you can remove sys_g_effects completely.

Doesn't make sense to have it then as it doesn't fix nor change the root of the problem (which is not caused by any ACE system).

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

It works around the issue that some servers aren't able to use jets because of the issues, while still punishing non-pilots for flying.
Those without the problems can then just keep using it, sounds imo like a good compromise until the root causes can be found / worked around.
But it's up to you.

Updated by shay_gman almost 5 years ago

quote "It doesn't affect many people!

Otherwise you would read many more complaints.
The only complaints we get is from people that use badly designed/implemented scripts/addons/modules."

Well as I was saying it's not a matter of badly designed scripts. Open an editor mission put a plane, a pilot and the BIS modules: Ambient cars. Ambient civilians, Weather and Garbage collector and fly around without doing acrobatic stuff and u'll have it espically when flying near vilages.

We down to the point that ACE colide with BIS on that matter it's not some badly homemade scripts.

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

Don't worry, I'll remove g effects and some more ACE features that also need an environment where other addons/modules/scripts don't screw up the scripting engine (even if made by BIS).

Btw, we have optimized a lot of BIS scripts but we can't optimize all of their stuff.

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

@shay_gman: I have to disagree there though, those modules have some nice features however their performance is bad, especially in MP,
the fact that everything's fine with a massive scripted mod like ACE even in combination with others, until those modules are used should be proof of that as well,
and i'll quote BI from: http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Ask_Bohemia_about_A2OA_-_Answers

Has there been any improvements in Alice and Silvie module?
In A2OA, the ALICE module has been optimized and simplified.

In any case thanks for the rpt and the testing Giap, however (everyone) please take a look at note 29: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/10899#note-29
Tests with rpts would be helpful, if you enable the cba_diagnostic_bla addon as mentioned in linked post.
(This should show when the scripting engine is slowing down and you'll be able to figure out which modules exactly are the problem)

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

Addition...

Last BIS module update was for 1.03, released August, 2009.

Updated by Giap almost 5 years ago

thats a copy sickboy for any future testing we will remember to enable the cba_diagnostic ;)

Updated by Salah almost 5 years ago

shay_gman wrote:

quote "It doesn't affect many people!

Otherwise you would read many more complaints.
The only complaints we get is from people that use badly designed/implemented scripts/addons/modules."

Well as I was saying it's not a matter of badly designed scripts. Open an editor mission put a plane, a pilot and the BIS modules: Ambient cars. Ambient civilians, Weather and Garbage collector and fly around without doing acrobatic stuff and u'll have it espically when flying near vilages.

We down to the point that ACE colide with BIS on that matter it's not some badly homemade scripts.

You even get the problem if you simply put a plane on an otherwise emtpy Utes map and fly around, with the only addons being the ACE ones.

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

Salah wrote:

You even get the problem if you simply put a plane on an otherwise emtpy Utes map and fly around, with the only addons being the ACE ones.

Ugh, I don't think so.

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

Salah wrote:

You even get the problem if you simply put a plane on an otherwise emtpy Utes map and fly around, with the only addons being the ACE ones.

Please show your source/proof: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/10899#note-29

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

Running some hypothesis and discussions on the issues with script scheduling:
https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+74Ar4x3xC
publically viewable at: http://wave.dev-heaven.net/waves/4

Updated by rocko almost 5 years ago

  • Priority changed from Normal to Low

No news since last update. Good sign.

Updated by ViperMaul almost 5 years ago

I still get the same or similar issue. I do not have enough information to determine if what I am seeing is a bug or not. I will post my test mission.

Updated by ViperMaul almost 5 years ago

Here is a file that produces some black out due to G
I couldn't find the same test file that gave me a complete black screen for 5 or more seconds.
If I do I will upload it.

This is probably not a bug.

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

I've checked your test mission, ViperMaul. But did not get any g effect at all.

Now tell us what addons else you use that might cause troubles.
(or probably my rig is just to fast :D)

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

Please test with the diagnostics addon
http://ace.dev-heaven.net/wagn/Script_Performance

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

  • Due date changed from 06/09/2010 to 06/23/2010
  • Status changed from Feedback to In progress
  • Priority changed from Low to Normal
  • % Done changed from 50 to 70

We believe we have found good methods to provide good ACE feature performance, even when the scripting engine is lagging / scheduling.
We've prototyped it at Google Wave today, and already did some implementations or preparations in systems that require it badly, e.g: G-Force Effects, Missile Guidance and Steerable parachutes.
The results look very promising.
We'll be improving the implementation and probably expanding it to more systems where e.g realtime interactivity is essential, mostly features involving the player('s control).

http://ace.dev-heaven.net/wagn/Breaking_out_of_the_scheduled_scripting_prison

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

We are simply skilled :P

/me hides and runs

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

  • Status changed from In progress to Resolved
  • % Done changed from 70 to 100

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

  • Status changed from Resolved to Closed

Updated by Sickboy almost 5 years ago

So a lot of time and energy went into this; How are the results? :D

Updated by Xeno almost 5 years ago

Newspapers today wrote...

Amazing... Perfect... Unbelievable...

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